Tuesday, May 18, 2010

"Inflammatory" mosques

The Arab- and Muslim-bashing community features numerous charlatans inexplicably described as scholars, thinkers or even philosophers. We have already dealt with Alan Dershowitz, but he pales beside a deranged rabbi by the name of Shmuley Boteach.

In a column carried by The Jerusalem Post, Boteach informs us that:

Tempers are heating up in the New York City area over the plans by the American Society for Muslim Advancement and another Islamic group known as the Cordoba Initiative to build a $100 million, 13-story, Islamic cultural center and mosque just two blocks from Ground Zero. And if that were not inflammatory enough, the plan is to inaugurate the new center on the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

There are many ways in which building things can be inflammatory. For instance, if you build a settlement on private land belonging to someone else, that's inflammatory. If you build apartment blocks in defiance of both international law and the commitments signed by your country, that's also inflammatory. But what can be inflammatory about building a religious center in compliance with the existing laws and regulations? Let Boteach explain:

[I]t would be the height of insensitivity, not to say an outright provocation, for the Islamic community to build a giant Islamic shrine at the resting place of 3,000 innocent Americans who were murdered by Islamic terrorists.

Let me see if I get this straight. Some Muslims who did nothing wrong must refrain from building mosques near the place where other, completely unrelated Muslims crashed planes into buildings. This must be because all Muslims are responsible for what all other Muslims do, right? I can think of another religious group, with which Boteach may not be completely unfamiliar, that has been fighting this kind of logic for some two millennia.

But it seems this wise man is not alone in his paranoia:

New Yorkers seem overwhelmingly opposed to the plan, comparing its insensitivity to the German government opening, say, a Bach appreciation museum right outside Auschwitz, or Toyota opening a car factory by the Arizona Memorial on the island of Oahu.

He may have meant Wagner not Bach, and one wonders why the German government would want to open a music museum in a place inside Poland. But in any event, the fact that the Nazis acted as the elected leaders of Germany obligates all successive German governments to be very sensitive to Jewish feelings. This is hardly true for the Muslims of New York, who are in no way obligated by the choices of 19 men unrepresentative of Islam.

Having established that Muslims share collective responsibility for the original sin of the Twin Towers, Boteach proceeds to explain how they could redeem themselves:

I HAVE a simple, elegant, and deeply moral solution. Let the Islamic cultural center be built. Let the mosque be included. But, the Muslim organizations building it should commit right now to making the principal focus of the building a museum depicting the rise of Islamic extremism, its hate-based agenda and how it is an abomination to Islam.

The museum would feature exhibits showing the major fomenters of Islamic hatred worldwide and the cultural and religious factors that have gained them so wide a following.

Of course, it's a matter of everyday experience to walk into a Catholic church and see the pictures of child-abusing Catholic priests, along with an explanation of how that's an abomination of the institution of celibacy. Similarly, you may recall when you were last invited to a Jewish wedding and you saw a museum dedicated to rabbi Meir Kahane inside the synagogue, which explained how his anti-Arab hate is an abomination of Judaism, and denounced --complete with the pictures and videos-- the stoning of Palestinian schoolgirls and the burning of olive trees carried out by his followers. Because you know, all Catholics are tainted by their rapists, and all Jews by their racists, and they must exorcize themselves by repudiating those sinners in their houses of prayer.

More Boteach:

The museum would feature exhibits showing the major fomenters of Islamic hatred worldwide and the cultural and religious factors that have gained them so wide a following. It would have exhibitions on some of the terrible atrocities committed by these Islamic fundamentalists, focusing specifically on the slaughter at Ground Zero on 9/11.

In other words, guilty until proven innocent. All Muslims must be considered terrorists unless they subject themselves to public self-flagellation in their own cultural centers.

Nothing new there. Try boarding a plane with a hooked nose and thick eyebrows, let alone a keffiyeh. But it's scary to see how mainstream such racist stereotypes have gone, and how cheerfully popular rabbis espouse them.

124 comments:

Anonymous said...

"Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we.'"
(Mark Twain)
I hope your "tapeworm" is doing well, oh Omniscient Ibrahim Pretender

Anonymous said...

I'm sure that the 1 billion Muslims around the world are so very grateful to have as their Great Defender the Argentinean Brit with a fraudulent Muslim pseudonym. What courage you have, Alberto.

Anonymous said...

"Try boarding a plane with a hooked nose and thick eyebrows, let alone a keffiyeh."

i.e. Jews are suspicious but if you wear a keffiyah it's even worse. Untrue and inflammatory. Classical antisemitism at its worst, except now you're conflating the Jewish stereotype with an Arab one. Disgusting nonetheless. You should be ashamed of yourself. With defenders like you the Arabs don't need enemies.

Anonymous said...

A long time ago, when not only Ibrahim´s name was Alberto, but he was also a jew…

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3QZYJCL94JEDY/ref=cm_pdp_rev_more?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R2TWMYUF5ML9KX

"Reviews Written by
Alberto José Miyara (Rosario, Argentina) (...) This book will far less welcome, however, BY THOSE JEWS, LIKE THE AUTHOR OF THIS REVIEW, don't like to be told what they should think about Israel in order to be good Jews."

Nadie reciste un archivo, no?


Those malicious zionists know exactly who you are but they never ever messed with you outside the Internet. Not only did they not go and “chat” with you personally, but they didn't even publish your private address, phone number, or anything like that. You should say “thank you"...

Sos raro, flaco... Conozco un par de ex-alumnos tuyos y todos concuerdan que por lo menos tenes un comportamiento bastante estrafalario...

Rosarigarino

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

Really, Anon @ May 19, 2010 8:32 AM? Previously I had been described as a half Jew. Have I been promoted to full Jew? How kind of you. Search the archives just a little more and who knows, you may end up finding out that I'm a devout Zionist. I promise to shed this blog in that case.

Anonymous said...

thanks Anon Rosarigarino

I especially liked the profile
- it seems Alberto José is whatever suits his impersonating a somebody purpose best

- and José - mmmh - just like the present pope - in Germany a first name suitable only for Catholics at least when of Alberto's age

- and wow he is a university professor
- no wonder he claims to be omniscient but he doesn't say what he teaches or if they allow him to teach at all and maybe the title university professor is to be had as cheeply in Argentina as in Germany unless there's tenure of course.

- last time I read something about his profession he was an engineer and now he tells us he is into wood-technology - maybe he does cute little carvings of gnomes or so or embraces trees to find their soul

and last but not least he does have "journalistic" concerns - lots of professions he aspires to - can it be that he is good at none except at being the fake who covers his tracks really badly.

- and now after he has self-proclaimed as a Jew he wants to "negotiate"


Nickname: ajmiyara
Location: Rosario, Argentina
In My Own Words:
Alberto José Miyara is a university professor, writer and journalist from Rosario, Argentina. He has authored three short-story books and does research on wood technology. His journalistic concerns include human rights, the Catalan language and Jewish issues.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3QZYJCL94JEDY/ref=cm_aya_pdp_profile

Anonymous said...

3 short story books and none to be found even here

http://www.iberlibro.com/

but probably they were so much in demand that not a single copy is left ;-)

Greg Potemkin said...

Good article, as usual Ibrahim.

BTW- "Try boarding a plane with a hooked nose and thick eyebrows, let alone a keffiyeh."

I don't have a hooked nose, and my eyebrows are not that thick, but I usually make it a point to wear a keffiyeh around my neck whenever I board a plane (especially in winter since it makes a very good scarf). I usually don't get hassled, but if I do, it is a small price to pay for making a very important political statement.

Anonymous said...

Potemkin

mmmh the guy who sucked up to the empress ...

andrew r said...

What is it with Zio trolls and using gender as an insult? What would Golda say?

Oh, silly me. She also did that.

Anonymous said...

andrew r
wins top price for nuance
i.e. business as usual

Gert said...

It's all a bit reminiscent of refusing Ahmadinejad to go pay his respects to ground zero: pure guilt by association. We'll never learn...

Anonymous said...

Gert
dripping all over with holier-than-though-y-ness
i.e. business as usual

Anonymous said...

Why am I not surprised that Mr. Miyara once impersonated a Jew?

Oh wait, because now he pretends to be "Ibrahim Yusuf" to give his anti-zionist rantings more street cred.

Or is it to hide his embarrassing views from his Jewish students?

Anonymous said...

my theory is that Mr. Miyara perceives himself to be a loser and so he tries on personalities at random trying to find one that might make him feel self-respect.

Why, however, he choses in order to achieve that goal tactics which no self-respecting person, Jew or non-Jew, would use, remains still an unsolved mystery to me. Maybe his next incarnation will illuminate me.

Anonymous said...

Great post HB. As usual, instead of attacking your argument the zios have no choice but to attack you.

Anonymous said...

have no choice or find the argument so lowbrow vacuous unsubstantiated and silly that they chose not to take it up???

if it turns you on Anon why then is all you have to say saccharine praise???

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Here is an analogy. Imagine that Baruch Goldstein attacked a mosque with no connection to the Cave of the Patriarchs. And he didn't just shoot people inside, he used a truck-bomb to completely reduce it to rubble, killing everyone inside except for a few people who sensed something was about to happen and who got clear of the building. Now someone wants to build a Religious Zionist Synagogue on the former site of that Mosque. Muslims are, shall we say, indignant. Discuss.

Anonymous said...

Great rebuttal, Yitzach. Shows you that bigots like Alberto Miyara never try to see things from the other side's point of view.

andrew r said...

Actually, it's because we tried to see things from the other side's POV that we're firmly against it.

Yitzchak's analogy is totally disingenuous. It's objectionable when the colonial settlers impose their symbols on the natives. US citizens who have done nothing wrong are doing nothing wrong by building a Mosque.

Anonymous said...

andrew r

wins again top spot on nuance
- natives who are being "sensitive" on Draw Mohammed Day have no need whatsoever to be sensitive to "infidels'" feelings

andrew must have grey cells which would make Hercule Poirot go green with envy

needless to say:
Yitzchak's analogy is spot on

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

Yitzchak -- Your analogy changes enough details from the original situation as to render it invalid.

IF Goldstein had bombed a Muslim-owned office building (rather than a mosque), and IF the action had taken place in Paris (rather than in the West Bank), and IF the proposed synagogue was to be built two blocks from the site of the attack (rather than instead of the building itself), I think no one would object to its construction.

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

Maybe his next incarnation will illuminate me.

In my next incarnation I plan to be a bisexual zebra roaming the island of Mauritius, so I'm afraid I won't be of much help to you either.

andrew r said...

natives who are being "sensitive" on Draw Mohammed Day have no need whatsoever to be sensitive to "infidels'" feelings

Muslims aren't collectively guilty of 9-11 any more than Jews are for Zionism (otherwise I'd be guilty).

Also, I'd like to think not everyone who lives around the WTC blames Muslims as a whole. Even 9-11 victims aren't spared your prejudice.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

IF Goldstein had bombed a Muslim-owned office building (rather than a mosque), and IF the action had taken place in Paris (rather than in the West Bank), and IF the proposed synagogue was to be built two blocks from the site of the attack (rather than instead of the building itself), I think no one would object to its construction.

Supposing the Louvre was totally demolished by a member of a cult which objected to all the paintings of naked people. And the same cult then wanted to build a center on the former site of a building destroyed by the blast?

andrew r said...

Jesus wept.

Anonymous said...

andrew
it's muslims who claim there is a something called Umma - one can't eat the cake and keep it.

BTW just now I had a small miracle happening to me - a woman with a headscarve accompanied by her little daughter smiled back at me when I smiled at the child - no scowling - it must have been years that that hasn't happened to me - and even though I have been scowled at for years I never stopped trying the smile ...

let the ones who are not yelling "respect" without any intention of reciprocating smile back more often and the problem might vanish as fast as it appeared.

andrew r said...

She was no doubt on the way to her weekly cell meeting and smiled to throw you off.

Anonymous said...

bisexual zebra on Mauritius

mmmh? - I guess they know how to grill steaks on Mauritius also

Anonymous said...

congratulations to andrew
you can claim a "defeat"
maybe next time Mr. Miraya goes for bragging about his "defeat" he shares the crown with you

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

See here how Boteach deprives the story from all context, and how he's silent about the many endorsements, including from a NYC rabbi, that the imam behind the project has received.

Again, Yitzchak? You use the word "cult," a loaded term, as if it described Islam. Your analogy is still invalid, since it equates two quite different things.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Again, Yitzchak? You use the word "cult," a loaded term, as if it described Islam. Your analogy is still invalid, since it equates two quite different things.

I just used the word "cult" because they are small and unheard of. I did not change the aspect of the case that you based your argument on--that's the key to a valid analogy. The average member of this minor religion feels that, of course, their religion has nothing to do with the destruction of innocent life. He isn't exactly mourning about the demise of those filthy pictures, but he certainly doesn't condone using violence to promote his religion's beliefs. The death of all those people, he would say, is indefensible.

Anonymous said...

How's this for an analogy: build the Pakistani consulate in Bombay right next to the central train station, where Pakistani terrorists murdered dozens of innocent Indian civilians in cold blood.

Legal? Sure. Insensitive and divisive, of course. Same exact thing with building a giant mosque at Ground Zero.

Anonymous said...

when the pope refuses to "grant" protestants the title church surely Jews are on much more solid grounds would they call their offspring religions "cults".

But this is not what has happened here instead we have a typical "Ibrahim" who proves that he is incapable of recognizing an umbrella term for what it is. But he is a "linguist" - must be a really strange profession ...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous: "Those malicious zionists ... go and “chat” with you personally": Zionists in Rosario? I bet their parents arrived from Germany in the late 1940's. A bit too lame to reach Paraguay, really. Now their kids choose Zionism, with polished boots. They still "chat" in German, you know.

Anonymous said...

Alberto Miyara teaches math. Obviously he's not a social studies, poli-sci or international relations prof; he's just way to ignorant about history and politics for that. Just another math nerd.

Gert said...

Anon whatever:

"it's muslims who claim there is a something called Umma - one can't eat the cake and keep it."

Of course Jews, Christians or whatever takes your fancy don't feel any kinship, don't often act as 'one for all, all for one'...

Yitzchak:

The point is that whoever would resort to the behaviour advocated and endorsed by Boteach would of course be wrong. Racist, actually...

Anonymous said...

Gert
woefully ignorant as usual

Yitzchak Goodman said...

The point is that whoever would resort to the behaviour advocated and endorsed by Boteach would of course be wrong. Racist, actually...

Ibrahim argued that whereas Germans have to be sensitive to the victims of Nazism because that was the German leadership at the time, Muslims don't have to be sensitive to 9/11 victims because the terrorists were "unrepresentative of Islam." I tried to construct some analogous cases in which the "unrepresentative" factor might exist, but sensitivity is nevertheless required. Are you making a related point? R. Boteach's proposal for an extremism museum would be "racist" because sensitivity is not called for here due to the reason Ibrahim gave?

Anonymous said...

Yitzchak Goodman: Muslims don't have to be sensitive to 9/11 victims [testingly]?. Huh? Who said 'have to be sensitive'? 'Have to' by who? Why even introduce 'sensitive' as a criteria? Because that's where you can start haggling on morals?

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

"Ibrahim argued that whereas Germans have to be sensitive to the victims of Nazism because that was the German leadership at the time [...]"

Did he do that? Where? If he did then he's wrong IMHO.

I'm not German but if I was I'd feel obliged to be 'sensitive to the victims of Nazism' only because not doing so could cost me dearly, not because logically, ethically or morally I'm under any obligation to do so. I'm not a Nazi and neither was my father. But if my father had been a Nazi, does that make me guilty too? Those who claim I should be 'sensitive' impart guilt on me (by association), guilt that I don't carry.

Similarly, the building of a Mosque should not be impeded because some associate wrongly and absurdly Mosques with 9/11.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Did he do that? Where?

He wrote "the fact that the Nazis acted as the elected leaders of Germany obligates all successive German governments to be very sensitive to Jewish feelings."

Similarly, the building of a Mosque should not be impeded because some associate wrongly and absurdly Mosques with 9/11.

And if a building destroyed by the same blast that demolished the Louvre is replaced by an Urgsplargian Temple that shouldn't bother anyone because rank-and-file Urgsplargians don't condone the actions of the lone Urgsplargian who planted the bomb?

Anonymous said...

Gert
if you were a bit less ignorant than you are you were aware that German residents of all ages to this day profit from the looting spree during the 3rd Reich
- and don't you dare mention so-called "Wiedergutmachung"
- the amount was a pittance as compared to the looted stuff
- from dish towel to master piece we grabbed everything and and kept as much as possible without loosing too much face.

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

I must stress that I said that the German governments are obligated to be sensitive to Jewish feelings. But I don't think there would be anything wrong with a private German citizen opening a museum near Auschwitz.

Anonymous said...

Auschwitz is in Poland - I doubt the Poles would be amused

an occasional check at Wikipedia would do you a whole lot of good Ibrahim

- but of course only what the radio tells you counts in your world

Come on today is Monday - your new "inspiration" is due - get going, create another nonsense

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

"And if a building destroyed by the same blast that demolished the Louvre is replaced by an Urgsplargian Temple that shouldn't bother anyone because rank-and-file Urgsplargians don't condone the actions of the lone Urgsplargian who planted the bomb?"

You kind of seem to get it and not at the same time. Do you believe the Urgsplargians bear collective guilt for the actions of one lone Urgsplargian?

Do you believe Muslims bear collective guilt for 9/11? This is the only way prohibiting the building of a Mosque near ground zero could possibly be justified.

Well, do you?

Anons:

Shhh... the adults are talking...

Anonymous said...

Yitzchak is not only an adult, his blog has become required and esteemed reading for me

Gert is suffering from a severe attack of megalomania, if he can imagine himself to be even remotely in Yitzchak's class

adults are always in danger not to realize when they are past their prime - once they start making silly arguments they should admit to themselves that it's downwards from now on.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Do you believe Muslims bear collective guilt for 9/11?

No.

This is the only way prohibiting the building of a Mosque near ground zero could possibly be justified.

I think you're wrong to think that's the only consideration. Ibrahim wrote about my first analogy "IF the proposed synagogue was to be built two blocks from the site of the attack (rather than instead of the building itself . . . " That refers to the fact that the proposed Mosque isn't actually being built at ground zero. Why is that relevant? If it all comes down to the presence or absence collective guilt, let them build it on the exact site of the World Trade Center.

Ernie Halfdram said...

Boteach is obviously a very thinskinned character. Remember that this is the guy who bought the house next to one belonging to the Libyan government and was then scandalised when the head of the Libyan mission to the UN proposed to move in. And now he wants to turn it into a Jewish centre: http://bureauofcounterpropaganda.blogspot.com/2010/01/cup-of-sugar.html.

Anonymous said...

mmmh??????

Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog The Bureau of Counterpropaganda does not exist.

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

"Why is that relevant? If it all comes down to the presence or absence collective guilt, let them build it on the exact site of the World Trade Center."

From the POV of those who want to build the Mosque there are certainly other considerations, not least the (non) availability of the site. But if it was available they would think twice about building it there because of the reactions that would cause.

What other considerations do you think Boteach has, other than assigning collective guilt to Islam/all Muslims?

Here's Ernie's link, from his comment above...

Yitzchak Goodman said...

But if it was available they would think twice about building it there because of the reactions that would cause.

And what would those reactions be? And would there be anything to them other than a perception that all Muslims are collectively guilty?

What other considerations do you think Boteach has, other than assigning collective guilt to Islam/all Muslims?

I'd rather not speak for Boteach. I have been suggesting that an objection to a mosque on or close to ground zero could be based on something other than a perception of collective Muslim guilt. It could be based on an aversion to a final outcome that would have delighted the actual 9/11 hijackers: a mosque rising from the rubble they created. It could also be based on perceptions of political correctness at work. Perhaps the plans to build the mosque represent an overly apologetic attitude on the part of NY government officials who approved the plans. That would be two examples.

andrew r said...

It could be the actual 9/11 hijackers would've been delighted by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. Plus the Iranian regime, which condemned 9/11 but you're probably not fond of anyway, gained a foothold in Iraq since SCIRI became the ruling party.

Plus, you're only saying Muslims bear collective guilt for 9/11 in a roundabout way. Did you know there's a Shinto temple in Hawaii?

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

Possibly. But I believe the puerile reasoning 'Islam = terrorism' really became very prominent in the US immediately after 9/11, see the many, many manifestations of it (e.g. considering 'Hussein' Obama to be a Muslim).

Here in the UK we note strong objections to the building the London 'Supermosque': the motives for objecting nearly all boil down to the association of terrorism and Islam, in some way or another...

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Plus, you're only saying Muslims bear collective guilt for 9/11 in a roundabout way.

You can explain that if you'd like.


Did you know there's a Shinto temple in Hawaii?

Was it inaugurated on the anniversary of Pearl Harbor and relatively soon afterward? Would it have been reasonable for anyone to object if that was the case?

andrew r said...

Yeah, I'll explain it. You play into the fear of Muslim terrorists taking over America with that notion. The stupid thing is, refusing to build the Mosque gives bin Laden his war between Islam and the West (more of it, anyway) and building it gives him a victory. No, the Mosque is just not relevant to 9/11, al Qaeda or any GWOT even if bin Laden opens his own big mouth.

By the way, some of those killed on 9/11 were also Muslims. Salman Hamdani was an EMT who died in the rubble. Double irony, since he wasn't found until later his family was questioned over the attack.

With all that said, it should be apparent why I don't understand what matters about the date. If the city wants to pass an ordinance against inaugurating new establishments near the site on that day, that's one thing. But if starting a new bank or a place of worship for another religion would be ignored, a Mosque shouldn't have people up in arms.

Anonymous said...

it seems like some German cities which were all Kumbaya about getting mosques start to realize that they have said yes to more than they thought they did
- and note: the UK is tunnel notwithstanding still an island not one of those countries which borders everywhere let alone a continent by itself - so Gert stop your ignorant comparisons

gloopygal said...

This post (along with so many others) is absolutely spot-on. I notice the anonymous posters trolling your comments can't even come up with a coherent rebuttal. Thank you for writing this blog, you are so valuable!

Anonymous said...

congratulations Ibrahim - it seems you have finally got an admiress - have you already offered to send her a piece of your music if she sends you her picture???
Silke

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

Actually, Silke, she's already what you crave to be, i.e. my mistress. She offered to volunteer a positive comment so as not to give the impression that the blog is disliked by everyone who visits.

BTW, we do trios, if you fancy.

Anonymous said...

trios - wow - there are still people who do them?
how quaint - those were the days ...

Silke

Anonymous said...

Anonymous: "the UK is [tunnel notwithstanding] still an island not one of those countries which borders everywhere". You know re borders, tolerance & religion: research Ireland history. NSFW.

Yitzchak Goodman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Yitzchak Goodman said...

[Repost with typo corrected]:

No, the Mosque is just not relevant to 9/11

Imam Abdul Rauf, Chairman of the Cordoba Initiative writes:

"My work is to make sure mosques are not recruiting grounds for radicals.

To do that, Muslims must feel they are welcome in New York. Alienated people are open to cynicism and radicalism. Any group that believes it is under attack will breed rebellion. The proposed center is an attempt to prevent the next 9/11."

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/26/2010-05-26_the_truth_about_the_mosque_the_leader_of_proposed_muslim_center_near_ground_zero.html

Not the sort of relevance you meant, but interesting, no?

andrew r said...

Ibrahim: The thought of joking around with someone who writes the things Silke does is enough to make me sick.

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

"Not the sort of relevance you meant, but interesting, no?"

I'm interested to hear in what way you find this interesting... No pun intended.

Anonymous said...

andrew
to enjoy banter is an indicator of a nimble mind
Silke

Anonymous said...

67 comments, wow. Except it's the same three idiots going in circles around Alberto's silly little articles. Have you noticed that the comments stop or slow down on the weekends? They say the internet is dominated by bored & useless admin people.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

I'm interested to hear in what way you find this interesting

Lots of subtext, wouldn't you say? There's a mini-theory of what causes terrorism, and it seems to have a lot to do with what the West does. "The proposed center," he writes, "is a an attempt to prevent the next 9/11." I'm trying not to rub your face in it, but that's just like the motivation for building a new Baptist church or a bank?

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

From the Imam's words, the site of the mosque, as well as the planned dedication date, are an attempt to do some sort of intercultural healing. To describe them as a provocation is downright outrageous.

Anonymous said...

Ibrahim the Impostor impostoring again, just as if he hadn't lost all entitlement to passing moral judgements like "outrageous" long long ago.

my inner eye sees Alberto looking at himself in a mirror, a smug smile spreading over his face while he whispers to himself "what a great hypocrite, slanderer and wannabe incitor you are, my boy"

Yitzchak Goodman said...

From the Imam's words, the site of the mosque, as well as the planned dedication date, are an attempt to do some sort of intercultural healing. To describe them as a provocation is downright outrageous.

OK, we'll pursue that line of inquiry, but we've laid to rest the argument that it is just like a new Presbyterian church or a new Toyota Dealership, and that it is racist to think otherwise, right?

By the way, here is an interesting paragraph from the generally Rauf-supporting Forward:

One person, who asked not to be identified because he is involved in interfaith affairs, said he was opposed on other grounds. “Even though Feisal doesn’t intend it to be an act of triumphalism, that is how it would be perceived in the Muslim world,” he said. “It’s psychologically disastrous.”

http://forward.com/articles/128347/

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

"OK, we'll pursue that line of inquiry, but we've laid to rest the argument that it is just like a new Presbyterian church or a new Toyota Dealership, and that it is racist to think otherwise, right?"

I've put nothing to rest: if it wasn't for the racism (i.e. believing Islam is collectively guilty of 9/11) building a Mosque would indeed be no different from building a new Presbyterian church or a new Toyota Dealership.

Ask yourself why also in Europe, post 9/11, 7/7 etc, the building of Mosques or minarets (see the Swiss flap), or even Muslim female head gear is an 'issue' when it wasn't before? The French philosopher and PolSci types that now prattle on about 'women's rights' and 'political symbols' pre 9/11 didn't care about those things? Why, post 9/11, do we find ourselves having to rebut outrageous nonsense like 'Islam isn't compatible with Western values'?

"[...] that is how it would be perceived in the Muslim world,” he said. “It’s psychologically disastrous."

That sounds like nonsense to me. Perhaps Radical Islamists see it that way but here we're hitting on the same problem as before: an unwillingness/inability to distinguish between a few perpetrators and those associated to them by means of a shared religion...

Anonymous said...

Gert
the way you bring Europe into the picture tells me that you must be either very young or have a very short memory.

There were lots and lots of steps in the process starting AT THE LATEST with the beginning of the reign of Ayatollah Khomeini and in my country the headgear started to become visible in the early 90s probably for reasons you never heard of.

your reducing it to 9/11 and 7/7 is doing a lot of injustice to all decent people of all citizenships and all religions not least Muslims who want to live peacefully next to eachother.

Silke

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

OK, we'll pursue that line of inquiry, but we've laid to rest the argument that it is just like a new Presbyterian church or a new Toyota Dealership, and that it is racist to think otherwise, right?

Two fallacies in one and the same sentence.

I never made that argument, in the first place. And the fact that I'm adding new charges against the racist rabbi Boteach doesn't mean I've dropped my previous ones.

Anonymous said...

I think Fake Ibrahim currently suffers from a lack of focus because he is so furious that he couldn't to get on that Gaza trip and spend a wonderful time at this place getting a work-outs, massages and commiseration sessions galore.

I wonder, will Hamas show them also the homes of Gazans they bulldozed recently and the execution grounds besides all the other niceties they have there.
Silke

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/S_-gLJsgvrI/AAAAAAAACjM/d-kKXRnaxfk/s640/room.jpg

Anonymous said...

thank you Yitzchak for the Forward Link

they want to call that center Cordoba House - that may be well intended but

I think the guy fearing that it would be perceived as triumphalism in the "old" world got a good point.

That's what caliphate "dreamers" envision: reversing re-conquista.
New York near Ground Zero is not Al Andalus but why not start with new ground before regaining the old.

and before Gert and Andrew start the Al Andalus was paradise were they were singing Kumbaya 24/7 - there were 3 periods of muslim reign in Andalusia and only the first one came close to the ideal albeit by the standards of the time.

Silke

andrew r said...

Yes Silke, Muslims are going to conquer America by building Mosques. That's how conquest always happens. You legally immigrate to the country to be seized and build houses of worship. We must have at least seven or eight "re-conquista" efforts going on at once.

Living in multi-cultural, tolerant Europe as you do, it must be pretty scary to think Muslims are going to succeed where Stalin failed. Mechanized warfare and Gulags? THEY HAVE MOSQUES. That's why the Soviet Union failed. Conquered too many places with Mosques. The Tsar as good as demolished the empire when he invaded Turkmenistan.

Anonymous said...

andrew

what do you imbibe to get so deliciously incoherent?

just one minor hint in case you should have sobered up when reading this.

I wasn't talking about actual conquest I was talking about people dreaming of conquests and talking about it and obviously every now and then to willing ears.

Oh and the big mosques are not just houses of worship. They get build with the promise of open to all, but somehow theory and practice then don't really want to come together and of course it is always the fault of "us".

Silke

Anonymous said...

Boteach is a rich and famous rabbi and a good friend of Obama's.

Alberto Miyara lives in the shithole of Rosario where he pretends to be an Arab political analyst.

Gert said...

Silke,

Please try not to blame andrew r's point for you not getting it: it's perfectly simple point to understand and I got it in one take.

If you're going to try and throw insults around, please try some that don't actually make you look stupid...

Anonymous said...

Gert
you are gorgeous

you really are my top LOL-guy, today you topped even Sandi Toksvig and her buddies.

if that compliment isn't big enough for you let me know, I'll think of another one

Silke

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Ibrahim:

I never made that argument

Do you have an opinion about it?

Gert:

if it wasn't for the racism (i.e. believing Islam is collectively guilty of 9/11) building a Mosque would indeed be no different from building a new Presbyterian church or a new Toyota Dealership.

Do you think a Presbyterian minister would say "My work is to make Presbyterian churches are not recruiting grounds for radicals"?

Yitzchak Goodman said...

That should read:

Do you think a Presbyterian minister would say "My work is to make sure Presbyterian churches are not recruiting grounds for radicals"?

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

I'm not sure at all what point you're trying to make with your last comment. That radical Muslims exist? Again I don't see how logically this changes anything, unless some want to associate these with mainstream Islam. It always boils down to the same thing: guilt by association...

Anonymous said...

Gert

let me quote you:
"it's perfectly simple point to understand and I got it in one take."

when you threw that at me it was missing the point because andrew had missed the point (as usual) but as to your comment on Yitzchak it is a brilliant remark.

Be proud of yourself, for once you hit the nail albeit indirectly - believe me I have been waiting for that all along

- and thanks for the help so I didn't have to come up with an answer myself.

Silke

Greg Potemkin said...

After reading the obtuse nonsense coming from Anonymous Silke in response to Andrew and Gert’s clear statements, I think that I will probably regret trying to engage him/her in discussion. But Silke made some reference to Hamas’ bulldozing of homes in Gaza, and then gave a link to a jpg of picture of a hotel.

I actually would like to see a link to some sort of a journalist’s account of the particulars of these house demolitions, so that I could learn more about it.

Anonymous said...

Greg
If you have missed the reports which were all over the news, MSM and Blogosphere alike I've got great news for you - there's an outfit called Google i.e. www.google.com

I think the word "raze" was included in the reports as well as homes and Gaza

go ahead be courageous, give it a try - a great new world will unfold before your eyes - and that's a promise.

other than that here is a bit of advice from Mommie: reading too much of the obtuse nonsense around here may cause harm to the little grey cells (if you haven't met Hercule Poirot, that's how he refers to the brain)

Silke

Yitzchak Goodman said...

That radical Muslims exist?

And that the possibility that an American mosque could become a "recruiting ground for radicals," as Rauf puts it, is a legitimate concern. You just made a distinction between "mainstream" Muslims and Radical Muslims. On what side of the line does MPAC.ie fall? Here is an article on their website affirming that "democracy is kufr."

http://mpac.ie/2010/05/26/the-politics-of-voting-were-we-wrong/

Anonymous said...

To all those passionately defending the institution of the mosque from the safety of their liberal democracies on this blog, i recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439157316/the-bea20

Get real fellas.

andrew r said...

If you're that interested Yitzchak, I think the Imam's attitude also plays into Islamophobia. It implies a Muslim community center (so it's not a Mosque...) could be a 'recruiting ground' for the next 9-11, but not this one!

This doesn't negate what I've said. In fact, it's a symptom. He shouldn't be compelled to make such comments at all.

andrew r said...

'from the safety of their liberal democracies'

See, even that remark is dripping with bigotry, and that's before unpacking the liberal democracy baggage. The world doesn't vote on US invasions, drone attacks and sponsorship of military regimes like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan. It suffers through them.

andrew r said...

Silke, 'I was talking about people dreaming of conquests and talking about it and obviously every now and then to willing ears.'

Oh, okay. That's not going to encourage irrational and demagogic fear of Muslims conquering our lovely Western Civilization. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. I shall endeavor to be more coherent.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

If you're that interested Yitzchak, I think the Imam's attitude also plays into Islamophobia. It implies a Muslim community center (so it's not a Mosque...) could be a 'recruiting ground' for the next 9-11, but not this one!

Whereas, in reality, Mosques are no more likely to be recruiting grounds for radicals than Presbyterian churches are?

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

Just like Brooklyn yeshivot are recruiting centers for people who will later stone Arab schoolgirls and burn olive trees in the West Bank.

Let's oppose yeshivah construction.

andrew r said...

Do you even think where you're going, phrasing things like that? Why not just have the FBI monitor every Mosque for radical activity. That's what Saddam did.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Just like Brooklyn yeshivot are recruiting centers for people who will later stone Arab schoolgirls and burn olive trees in the West Bank.

Are they? Which ones? You perceive me as attacking mosques in general so you are sort-of venting your spleen at Yeshivas. You didn't even bother to make your example parallel to what we are talking about.

Yitzchak Goodman said...

Do you even think where you're going, phrasing things like that? Why not just have the FBI monitor every Mosque for radical activity. That's what Saddam did.

Why don't you let me worry about where I'm "going," and just have a straightforward conversation? I think I'm asking fair questions, and I think those of you on the other side of this issue could make a more reasonable presentation of your case and that you are failing to do so. It might be that there is something to be said for bridge-building projects between the two communities. Maybe this one isn't the world's brightest idea, but who knows.

Anonymous said...

andrew
all German mosques I have ever read about are community centers at the same time

do some reading boy - your ignorance is appalling

Anonymous said...

"stone Arab schoolgirls"

time to brush up on your English a bit Ibrahim

these days and to think of it any old book I ever read in which stoning was mentioned it signified a community killing a fixed victim, the preferred method these days is to bury them so only the head looks out - makes presumable the killing more fun.

what an Israeli according to your oh so reliable presentation did was "throwing a stone"

go back to school, do some reading, your choice of words is below par

Silke

andrew r said...

The article Yitzchak linked to specifically said that was a community center, not a Mosque. And while I'm not an expert on Islam, I'm confident in knowing more about it than Islamophobes who read the Quran.

andrew r said...

The question you want to ask assumes Muslim radicals are acting out of nowhere. What you should really be asking is if Muslims are more likely to be targeted by the American security state or overseas warfare.

Anonymous said...

andrew
here is what the Cordoba Institute calls it
"mosque and community center"
http://www.cordobainitiative.org/

and here is a big German mosque saying the same about itself
http://www.ditib-du.de/
Ditib btw is a Turkish state organisation

andrew if you keep exposing your lack of googling/verifying skills here so openly I conclude that you are even more ignorant than Fake-Ibrahim
Silke

andrew r said...

Before we talk about my Googling and verifying skills, let's discuss your look-closely-at-what-you-linked skills.

This is the articled excerpted on the Cordoba Initiative site:
http://www.dnainfo.com/20100520/manhattan/politicians-rally-against-tea-party-bashing-of-world-trade-center-mosque

And here Imam Rauf echos the comments from his own article Yitzchak linked earlier:

"Rauf said emphatically that the center was 'not a Mosque. Though it will contain space for up to 2,000 Muslims to pray, it will also host many athletic and cultural events, possibly including the Tribeca Film Festival, he said. The Cordoba House may also include a memorial to those killed on 9/11."

It may be that there's a Mosque within the center. Still, the center itself is not simultaneously a Mosque.

This won't stop you from playing more time-wasting games. And since our favorite entity murdered more people last night, I'm feeling even less inclination than usual.

Anonymous said...

thanks andrew
for making it inadvertently perfectly clear that there are people about who like to fudge what they are about.

I stick to the main site of Cordoba Institute which is consistent with what all the others call themselves.

as to murdering people - if you had read up on it a bit it would be clear to you by now that the "peace acrivists" came with such murderous intent that it would make any hardened football hooligan blush.
enjoy: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/TAPNv5DWTqI/AAAAAAAACkc/TRZB6C5yQsQ/s640/knife.jpg

I understand that you would have liked to see Jews slaughtered with that piece.

Hopefully St. Peter or whoever will deny you entrance to the heavens for that

Silke

andrew r said...

Had the flotilla reached Gaza, there would've been no Jews murdered with that piece. Your accusation is an outright fantasy (surprise).

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

The Zios will now put together complicated argumentations proving that the soldiers had the technical right to murder the activists, leaving aside such inconvenient details as that the assault took place in international waters.

They just fail to understand how masturbatory that silly game is. Convincing yourselves is not enough; you must convince the others, folks!

... and then they'll complain that the world's focus has once again shifted away from Iran.

Anonymous said...

andrew
Israel is a state and states happen to have sovereign rights and never mind what the "without borders" crowd say and it is worth fighting for the defense of these borders as history has shown again and again.

and Ibrahim
wrong again - there is a forever increasing number of voices which fisks the international waters argument for what it is: BUNK - a lot of them seem to know what they are talking about, other than wannabe author, composer and last but not least international law expert for ever claiming expertise wherever his fancy takes him Ibrahim.

Silke

Anonymous said...

sorry I forgot to mention your latest: dog training expert
It is becoming a bit hard to remember all of them, could you provide a list, that would be a real kindness.
Silke

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

You called me Ibrahim without adding "fake."

I'm done for the day.

Anonymous said...

Fake Ibrahim
is being thick again
remember? a double negative becomes a positive - you are said to be a math teacher also - so you should know
Silke

PS: isn't it nice how one after the other of your buddies is talking without the veil on - in German we say: show me with whom you consort and I tell you who you are

andrew r said...

Israel is a state and states happen to have sovereign rights

Like removing a select group of people who were born in the country from citizenship via the Absentees' Property Law which your well-read self should be familiar with. This is what all sovereign states do.

Anonymous said...

wow andrew
so you are just such an expert on all kinds of law as Ibrahim is.

you are not only stupid and a bore you are also ridiculous - that's all

Silke

Gert said...

Yitzchak:

I hope you're not seriously trying to argue that places of worship and religious 'learning' of ANY denomination can't be breeding grounds for extremism? Judaism is no more or no less a 'religion of Peace' as any of the others.

You only need to look at your beloved Israel to see an upsurge in religious radicalism on your side. And its face isn't pretty at all...

Anonymous said...

Gert
you are comparing apples and pears and turning yourself into a clown of the most sorry type i.e. an unfunny one
THESE DAYS when it comes to breeding/educating/inciting terrorists mosques are leading the list by far.
and pray when was it the last Jewish suicide bomber has been pulling the ignition?

Silke

Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf said...

So, here's how the list of religious institutions would look like:

Presbyterian churches: No terrorist breeding ground.

Jewish yeshivot: Breeding ground for terrorists who throw stones (h/t Silke) at little girls, but not suicide bombers.

Islamic mosques: Breeding ground for suicide bombers.

Let's oppose all yeshivah and mosque construction.

Anonymous said...

Ibrahim
you did get a language lesson from me Mr. wannabe Linguist
- you didn't get a stone throwing incident h/t from me

- if you want to insult me go ahead, enjoy yourself, I look forward to it, it will give me lots of good laughs.
- but do it upfront not by slandering and insinuating and implying - you COWARD!!!

SILKE

demize! said...

Rabbi Boteach is a fucking charlatan and putz. Discuss.

demize! said...

Q. What's an inflammatory Mosque? A. Its one of those West Bank Masjids the fanatic settlers keep setting fire to. Zing, tip the waiters...

Gert said...

Anon:

"[...] and pray when was it the last Jewish suicide bomber has been pulling the ignition?"

Just give it time...

Anonymous said...

Gert
the future is unknowable by definition

- I asked about the past - gnash your teeth - you don't remember it?

Silke

Yitzchak Goodman said...

I hope you're not seriously trying to argue that places of worship and religious 'learning' of ANY denomination can't be breeding grounds for extremism?

Well, come to think of it, Presbyterian churches seem to be breeding grounds for extreme leftism.

andrew r said...

American public schools are breeding grounds for extreme US militarism. The Marines don't visit so they can 420 with the delinquents.

Anonymous said...

wow Ibrahim
your buddy andrew has made me wonder, really wonder, amazing that, I hope you'll help me out

I can't figure out what this sentence is supposed to tell me - backwards forwards etc read, all it intimates is highly mysterious goings on or is the mysteriousness due to andrew not being able to handle a double negative?

"The Marines don't visit so they can 420 with the delinquents."

Silke p
Have a nice Shabbat