If Gazans can eat candy or use computers, then the so-called Israeli blockade can't be that bad, can it? The world is lying and the measure doesn't essentially affect the Gazans' lives. Or so you argue.
Certainly, candy and computers are luxuries not everyone can afford. So are symphony orchestras. Therefore, the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto led luxurious lives! See:
 |
| A poster for a concert by the Jewish Symphony Orchestra in the Warsaw Ghetto on August 2nd, 1941 |
The Nazis can't have been that bad inasmuch as they allowed the Jews not only to own musical instruments, but also to play them in public concerts, for which they were even permitted to print posters, using paper, a scarce commodity in wartime. True, they were not allowed to play Jewish music, but that didn't detract much from their pleasure. The Jewish contribution to symphonic music is almost negligible, but even if we take into account the works of composers of other religions with Jewish ancestries, the restriction still allowed them to enjoy a terrific number of pieces. Anyone who can attend classical music performances, even if Christians of Jewish background like Mendelssohn and Mahler are left out, is almost as privileged as, well, someone who can put his fingers on a computer keyboard.
No. I'm not comparing Israel to the Nazis. I'm comparing you to a Holocaust denier, and I think it's an apt comparison. For you nitpick Gaza images that might convey normalcy as though they represented the whole Gazan reality. Or you point to the export of strawberries and flowers as though the external sales of any item but those two were not strictly forbidden. Very much like Holocaust deniers cite the countless Holocaust myths, canards and hoaxes to "prove" that the claim that six million Jews were exterminated is itself a lie.
Israel has banned imports of livestock for nine months at a time, and of footwear for three straight years. Neither cows nor shoes can be used to make bombs. The blockade of Gaza is collective punishment at its worst, targetting young children, elderly persons and disabled individuals for the sole reason of being Gazans. The fact that certain forms of punishment that could be implemented are not doesn't cancel the cruelty of those measures, viciously designed to cause pain, that do get put into effect by Israel.
The Warsaw Ghetto saw the death by starvation, disease and murder of hundreds of people every single day.
ReplyDeleteBy contrast, Gaza has one of the fastest growing populations of anywhere on earth. Just think about that.
Gazans are the recipients of the most charity per capita (incl. charity from Israel) of anywhere in the world. Nobody in Gaza goes hungry.
These facts shows what utter bullshit your specious comparison is, which is not only an insult to the memories of the victims of the Warsaw Ghetto but an insult to anyone with a brain.
"Negligible Jewish contribution to symphonic music" eh?
ReplyDelete198 pages of the names of Jewish composers here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_composers_and_songwriters
Jewish avant-garde composers of the 20th century murdered in the Holocaust here: http://www.leonarda.com/le342.html
Mendelsohn-Bartholdy, Meyerbeer, Offenbach, Milhaud, Mahler, Schoenberg, Gershwin, to name but a few.
But the true Jewish genius for music flowered in America.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt the leading American classical Jewish composer was George Gershwin (1898-1937), although there are those who would concede that honor to Aaron Copland (1900-1990). Leonard Bernstein (1918-1990) was the third in this Jewish-classical triumvirate. He wrote oratorios, stage plays such as West Side Story, and movie music. He also wrote symphonies and all kinds of dances, songs, concertos, etc.
In this country the Jewish genius truly unfolded. Harold Arlen, Burt Bacharach, Irving Berlin, Neil Diamond, Bob Dylan, Art Garfunkel, Marvin Hamlisch, Oscar Hammerstein, Jerome Kern, Frank Loesser, Frederick Lowe, Richard Rodgers, Neil Sedaka, Paul Simon, Stephen Sondheim and Kurt Weill were and are all Jewish. This is a partial list of those who created American music. Those not on the list were also Jewish, with a few exceptions.
Jews have written a good number of the rock ’n roll songs and even the Christian spirituals, such as the most popular Christian song “Spirit in the Sky”, whose composer is Norman Greenbaum.
Neil Sedaka, no doubt a major rock performer in this country, was a piano student of the famous classical pianist Artur Rubenstein. In the 1970’s Simon and Garfunkel created today’s popular music together with Billy Joel, the son of a holocaust survivor. Then there is the very much Jewish Barbra Streisand.
Consider that even the most important film scores have been written by Jews such as Elmer Bernstein, Bernard Herrmann, Erich Korngold, Andre Previn, Howard Shore, and Victor Young.
It is impossible to list even a fraction of the music these composers gave the film industry. Elmer Bernstein alone wrote the scores for movies from 1952 (Sudden Fear) to 2002 (Seven Women). His best-known music may well be the Western melodies he composed for movies of that type.
The truth is that from God Bless America written by the Jew Irving Berlin to To Know Him is to Love Him by Phil Spector, American music on the stage, the dance hall and on records is as Jewish as American medicine. Even now, more and more American music is being created by Jews whose genius in the music field is as great as it is in any other enterprise.
We are indeed The Chosen People.
Shalom u’vracha.
Anons
ReplyDeleteOf course you are the Chosen People which anybody with a wee bit of culture is perfectly aware of, but you forget Fake Ibrahim writes music himself and then presumably plays it himself to himself as sole audience on his piano and of course nothing but material for never materializing symphonies
therefore pity him but please without mercy
Silke
Kurtag, Gyorgi Ligeti, Halevy, Krasa, Andrey Previn, Artur Schnabel, Gustav Mahler, Irving Berlin, George & Ira Gershwin, Milton Babbit, Gideon Klein, Yehudi Menuhin.
ReplyDeleteHere's a list of just Jewish classical composers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_classical_musicians
This is called schooling.
Mendelssohn wrote the Reform symphony. Do you think he referred to the Protestant Reform -- which would indicate he was a sincere Christian? Or was it an homage to Reform Judaism?
ReplyDeletePlease look into it.
Anon 4.05 AM doesn't seem to realise you're not actually comparing Gaza to Warsaw. Too keen to spot Nazi analogies.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4.15 AM goes in my file as proof of the existence of Jewish supremacists and incorrect use off the 'Chosen People' thingy. Especially since I get told pointing those people out is antisemitic.
Silke can join Anon 4.15 AM in said file.
Yeah the fact that shops in Gaza are full, that the population rate is soaring, that Gazans are well-fed and taken care of by Israeli and international charities kinda throws a wrench into the whole anti-Zionist thing, doesn't it. Those pesky Gazans with all their food ruining your anti-Israel narrative!
ReplyDelete"Mendelssohn wrote the Reform symphony."
ReplyDeleteIf you read the famous correspondence between Mendelssohn and Hensel it becomes clear that he only converted for career reasons, and always considered himself a Jew.
Anon:
ReplyDelete"Yeah the fact that shops in Gaza are full, that the population rate is soaring, that Gazans are well-fed and taken care of by Israeli and international charities kinda throws a wrench into the whole anti-Zionist thing, doesn't it."
Yeah, I know, a bit like being fed in prison: just makes the whole experience so... I dunno... 'un-prison like'. More hotel than deprivation of liberty, if you get my drift.
'Cynics' would say that as Israel keeps an entire population hostage, that same Israel has a duty of care towards these hostages. Not something any of the 'Chosen Ones' should really boast about.
Gert,
ReplyDeleteHamas is a terrorist organization and the Strip is its base. Israel has no obligation under international law to open its border crossings to a hostile entity.
In fact, Israel is under a moral obligation to its own population NOT to open its borders to the Strip until Hamas is out of power. Or at least until Hamas returns Shalit and renounces violence and its genocidal policies as outlined in its charter.
And Israel is not the only one that will not open its borders with the Iran-backed mafia-controlled Strip. Why don't you go ask the Egyptian?
Yeah this really looks like prison food: http://keeptonyblairforpm.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/lauren_saidshelvesemptygaza.jpg
ReplyDeleteAnon, after 1967 Israel always determined what could come and go from Gaza. Hamas did not change that.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you're so bent on treating Gaza and Israel as separate entities, you'll note Gaza has no control over its own borders, even where it shares a common border with neither Israel nor Egypt. The Israeli navy has the last word on anything approaching Gaza from the coast.
ReplyDelete"The Israeli navy has the last word on anything approaching Gaza from the coast."
ReplyDeleteThat's right. It's a hostile entity with a government dedicated to Israel's destruction and backed by the meshugges in Iran. Besides, there's a long history of Hamas and other terror groups trying to smuggle in weapons to use against Israeli civilians (think of the Karine A). So no wonder that both Israel and Egypt will not allow free shipping into Gaza. It's just common sense.
By the way, for anyone interested there's a fantastic book by the great Holocaust scholar Yehuda Bauer about the role culture -- and esp. music -- played as a form of non-violent resistance (or at least defiance) by Jews to Nazi genocide during the Holocaust. It described how Jewish communities struggled to keep their culture alive, including Yiddish theater, classical music and Torah study, against all odds. A mesmerizing and poignant read. Should cure all fools of any desire to compare that kind of suffering to the situation in Hamastan.
ReplyDeleteAnd what was the excuse before Hamas took over Gaza? Gazans have always been restricted in what they could import and export and the sea port has always been closed.
ReplyDeleteFood rationing is clearly a tool of the blockade.
"The Israeli authorities also confirm the existence of four documents related to how the blockade works: how they process requests for imports into Gaza, how they monitor the shortages within Gaza, their approved list of what is allowed in, and a document entitled "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines" which sets out the minimum calorie intake needed by Gaza's million and a half inhabitants, according to their age and sex."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8654337.stm
And of course, if Israel had any moral obligation to its own population, which includes everyone from river to sea, it would not deprive the occupied Palestinians of citizenship on a racial basis. Israel has the exceptional right to target civilians and the victims have no right to respond because they're a demographic threat to the Jewish state.
Israel has never targeted civilians.
ReplyDeleteIsrael has always had restrictions on trade into Gaza because because we don't have a peace treaty with the Arabs and they try to import arms to kill us. During the peace process with Arafat these restrictions were eased to the point of non-existence. Since Hamas has taken over we have very tight restrictions for obvious reasons.
Under int. law Israel has a moral obligation to provide Gazans with basic necessities and enough food. We are under no obligation to provide them with anything more so long as Hamas remains in power.
I see that pseudo-Ibrahim has changed the original post (without noting it, which is dishonest) to back away from his original claim that the "Jewish contribution to symphonic music was negligible". Now it's "almost" negligible, and he qualifies it by saying that Mahler and Mendelssohn were nominally Christian (they both converted for career reasons).
ReplyDeleteThey identified as Jews their whole lives (of course they did; they were brought up by Jewish mothers!) And even if you were to pretend that they weren't Jews, what of Ligeti, Kurtag, Schnabel, Halevy, Berlin, Babbit, Schoenberg, Klein, Milhaud, Copland, Gershwin, Previn, Meyerbeer, etc.? Is their contribution to symphonic music over the last few hundred years "almost negligible" compared to, say, the Spanish, English or even French contribution? Would, for example, French music be the same without Milhaud, Halevy and Meyerbeer -- whose figures adorn the opera house of Paris?
This is all evidence of the importance and magnificence of the Jewish contribution to music, something which only an antisemite would choose to dismiss or denigrate.
The case of Schoenberg is instructive. He had converted to Roman Catholicism for the typical career reasons (a Jew would never have been accepted to a Viennese music school). But as soon as the Nazis took over and he fled, he reconverted publicly to Judaism and renounced his former conversion as a sham and a mistake.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone doubt that Mendelssohn and Mahler would not have done precisely the same in such circumstances? Their conversions were for purely careerist reasons.
Anon 2:19
ReplyDeleteRe Mendelssohn and Mahler -- don't forget that even if they converted, since their mothers were born Jewish they are still considered Jews according to the law.
"During his ten years in Vienna, Mahler—who had converted to Catholicism from Judaism to secure the post—experienced regular opposition and hostility from the anti-Semitic press."
ReplyDeleteFrom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Mahler#Early_life
Do you still claim that Mahler was a "Christian" in anything but the nominal sense?
Also from wiki:
ReplyDelete"In 1829, with the backing of Zelter and the assistance of a friend, the actor Eduard Devrient, Mendelssohn arranged and conducted a performance in Berlin of Bach's St Matthew Passion. ... It earned Mendelssohn widespread acclaim at the age of twenty. ...
To which he said: 'To think that it took an actor and a Jew's son (Judensohn, a play on his name) to revive the greatest Christian music for the world!'"
That doesn't sound much like a Christian now does it?!
Ask yourself this:
ReplyDeleteWould Wagner have written his antisemitic polemic "The Jews in Music" - which argued that European music was being dominated and corrupted by Jews - had their influence on it been "almost negligible"?
Read the story of Wagner's attack on the "Jewish influence on European music" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik
Now ask yourself again if the Jewish contribution to European classical music can be considered "almost negligible"!
P.s. remember this was before the great renaissance of Jewish composers in the 20th century...
If you were an honest man, Alberto/Ibrahim, you would admit your mistake on this blog.
Anon 4:02
ReplyDeleteFake Ibrahim will only admit something after you have hailed him as the greatest composer ever
- the whole way he is writing he must be one of these misunderstood suppressed by you know who greatest disregarded artists ever.
to all Anons - I enjoy what you are doing very much - thank you!!!
Silke
just found this - mmmh remarkable!
ReplyDeletebut of course it is all the doing of you know who and it is not symphonies so it is probably way beneath Fake Ibrahim
Silke
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=windows-1256&langpair=auto%7Cen&u=http://www.palpress.ps/arabic/index.php%3Fmaa%3DReadStory%26ChannelID%3D73564&tbb=1&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1
Wow was about to write something but this post got fisked pretty hard already i see...
ReplyDeletewill the blogger have the balls to respond?
I want an answer to this question from this blogger:
ReplyDeleteWould Wagner have written his antisemitic polemic "The Jews in Music" - which argued that European music was being dominated and corrupted by Jews - had their influence on it been "almost negligible"?
Read the story of Wagner's attack on the "Jewish influence on European music" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik
Now ask yourself again if the Jewish contribution to European classical music can be considered "almost negligible"!
P.s. remember this was before the great renaissance of Jewish composers in the 20th century...
If you were an honest man, Alberto/Ibrahim, you would admit your mistake on this blog.
Under int. law Israel has a moral obligation to provide Gazans with basic necessities and enough food. We are under no obligation to provide them with anything more so long as Hamas remains in power.
ReplyDeleteYou want to talk about international law, now? Give me a break. The 4th Geneva Convention explicitly forbids collective punishment.
Oh c'mon andrew r, they absolutely luuurrve I'national Law when it plays in their favour, not so much when it goes against them... Must be that 'moral clarity' again...
ReplyDeleteI love how these Hasbarists dilute the purpose of this thread by singling out a point that is of no real relevence, and completely ignoring the actual nature of HB's post.
ReplyDeleteI see that pseudo-Ibrahim has changed the original post (without noting it, which is dishonest) to back away from his original claim that the "Jewish contribution to symphonic music was negligible". Now it's "almost" negligible, and he qualifies it by saying that Mahler and Mendelssohn were nominally Christian (they both converted for career reasons).
ReplyDeleteThe word "almost" was always there. I'm perfectly aware of the works of Ernest Bloch, for instance.
As for Mendelssohn, he was a sincere Christian as confirmed by his Reform symphony. By no means did he convert for career reasons, as many here have ludicrously claimed: he was raised a Protestant by his parents. He was the greatest composer of Jewish descent, but there's nothing Jewish in his music. On the contrary, it's a continuation of the Austro-German musical tradition. Ditto for Mahler. To put it one way, the Jewish contribution to symphonic music was mostly the contribution of ex-Jewish Christians who had the luck to be born within a German musical culture. Bloch, Bernstein and similars were minor.
But as Tarig says, this has nothing to do with my main point, which is that you can always nit-pick exceptions to deny very clear patterns of oppression. The Holocaust deniers do it and the Zionists also do it.
Hugh ich habe gesprochen would Old Shatterhand's buddies have finished that diatribe
ReplyDeletebut back to the original important and worth of the superbly well thought through thought Fake-Ibrahim has managed to come up with
I bet they had the equivalent of that all over Warsaw http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uPzsiWdvLoQ/S-ybt3Uaw6I/AAAAAAAACfM/8Sg0ONO5Nf8/s1600/roots11.jpg
- maybe not quite that openly but I read that Oscar Schindler took care to lull his SS-contacts with wine and cigars. So who is lulling the people from the helper organisations who are said to frequent this place and for what purpose do they need lulling.
I think Fake-Ibrahim should write a captivating piece of music lauding the "every detail handled for you" stuff that the place is promising.
Silke
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteYour statement was that contributions by Jews have been "almost negligible." Let us agree for a moment to call Mendelssohn and Mahler Jews the same way Disraeli is often called a Jew. The Austro-German musical tradition would not be a qualification or reservation to the statement that Jews have made a significant contribution. It would explain why German Jews have made a bigger contribution to symphonic music than Polish Jews. Let us imagine that Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven had something in common not normally regarded as relevant to musical talent: they were all, say, sons of freemasons. We would then be able to say that sons of freemasons made towering contributions to symphonic music.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you remove my last post Alberto? The truth hits too close to home?
ReplyDelete"He was the greatest composer of Jewish descent, but there's nothing Jewish in his music."
ReplyDeleteStrangely ironic how antisemitism works.
Mendelssohn is denied a position in the orchestra because of his Jewish parentage. Wagner write 90 page polemic condemning Mendelssohn for his "Jewish" music. His music is banned in Germany in 1936 for being "Jewish". Today, antisemites deny Mendelssohn's Jewish identity; there's "nothing Jewish in his music" according to you.
Wagner attacks the Jewish influence on music. 6 million Jews are murdered. Today, antisemites deny the Jewish influence on music.
"this has nothing to do with my main point"
ReplyDeleteThe main point is precisely to reveal and analyze the antisemitism when it appears. It is so clear that even Gert won't support it.
Which is why you removed my last comment isn't it? Because it explained to Tarig why we must debunk your claims about Jewish music -- why it is more essential to do so than to argue about Zionism with you. Precisely because your ideas about Jewish music are more dangerous.
This is why the "actual nature" of your post was not about Gaza or the Warsaw Ghetto but really about denigrating the Jewish contribution to music.
And this is why you deleted my last comment; because you were ashamed.
Mahler converted at the age of 37 to Catholicism because it was a pre-condition for getting the Vienna job
ReplyDelete- as Ross*) doesn't say more it seems to me that it is unknown whether the enthusiasm was for getting hold of the job under all conditions or whether he saw the "light" as a Catholic would likely want it to be interpreted or if it just was the latest fad of an artist looking for a new "identity". I vote for the first and the last as the apology he made to himself.
.
All this that somebody couldn't write something Christian if he was still a Jew at heart is BS multiplied by delusion. These people were artists, professionals, not Ibrahims sitting at their pianos dreaming themselves into being somebody
- in literature men can write plausibly as women and vice versa, nobody asks them to be operated on before being able to do that or even to have experiences as a cross-dresser.
As always Fake-Ibrahim proves that he is incapable of thinking straight. All he is into is posing as an Argentinian wannabe somebody and in trying to satisfy this longing he doesn't mind trampling on feelings as long as those feelings belong to Jews.
He is just a misbehaved deluded hostile phantasist.
Silke
*) "with apparent enthusiasm" according to Alex Ross
Silke ~ Someone who defends bombing children from the air isn't exactly entitled to consideration.
ReplyDeleteYitzchak:
ReplyDeleteWhich is why you removed my last comment isn't it? Because it explained to Tarig why we must debunk your claims about Jewish music -- why it is more essential to do so than to argue about Zionism with you. Precisely because your ideas about Jewish music are more dangerous.
Seems to me you're looking very hard for an opportunity to accuse someone of antisemitism.
If he deliberately deleted it then how come the duplicate still stands??? Also it says "This post has been removed by the author", the 'author' being you...
I don't know whether Ibrahim made a little gaffe here or not and that's because I'm far from an expert on the Jewish contribution to the world of music. Does that self-confessed ignorance make me an antisemite too?
As I indicated above, Ib's point is simple but the usual suspects here refuse to see it: just because you can find a few happy people in Gaza doesn't mean the situation isn't dire, in the same way that a few tuneful Jews in Warsaw says very little about the actual conditions in the ghetto. Whether Jews collectively are musical geniuses or not doesn't change that for one iota.
//Which is why you removed my last comment isn't it? Because it explained to Tarig why we must debunk your claims about Jewish music -- why it is more essential to do so than to argue about Zionism with you.//
ReplyDeleteBull, I don't buy it! If the comment was removed by HB it would state removed by the administrator, it doesn't, it says removed by the author. Your little tricks may work on the uneducated but don't try to insult my intelligence by making such feeble claims. The bottom line is the reference to music made in the blog is a comparison to highlight the very evident double standards that zionists live by. The fact that you change the point of discussion to center on what may or may not have been a mistake by HB, even though this point is of absolutely no genuine relevance to the original nature of the post, merely acts as proof that you, and all the other zionists on here who are too embarrassed about siding with a nation commiting acts of ethnic cleansing to even show their names, know that HB is right!
andrew r
ReplyDeleteI much prefer having been bombed from the air to having had to live a life under Hitler and his buddies.
There is a price that needs to be paid for everything but in your book the Brits would of course have been off a lot better letting the Nazis invade, learning some Teutonism and thus save their country from itself - it is either the one or the other - but today eating the cake and keep it is the fashionable illusion of the empty minders
your remarks speak of facile do-goodism - thank heaven there were people cruel and reckless enough to save me from a life under those and thus giving me the wonderful life I have had hitherto.
Silke
//I much prefer having been bombed from the air to having had to live a life under Hitler and his buddies.
ReplyDelete//
Ahh, so you admit the evil nature of the zionist entity, in your book it's just not quiet as bad as Hitler was. You can't right the wrongs of one by citing the wrongs of another, this is mere stupidity.
Hitler being ousted was good for the majority, even Arabs, as his Arian nation consisted solely of blond haired blue eyed protestants, I don't think I would have qualified. So your opinion that Hitler's reign ending was good solely for the Jews is a null expression, especially considering zionist support for Hitler is well documented:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html
What is worth noting however is the detriment that Zionism causes from the river to the sea. Just because one committed acts of genocide towards you, does that give you the right to ethnically cleanse others who had absolutely no responsibilty in the former?
Your obvious answers are clear, we're not ethnically cleansing them, they are threatening to push us in to the sea, they use human shields (even though the only existing evidence of this occurring is photos of the IDF doing so), and all the rest of the hasbara BS you try to feed us. For that I will leave you with a quote from a great Jewish man:
"We are no longer in the 1960's, when the population would tolerate a murderous and destructive war for years without visible protest. The activist movements of the past forty years have had a significant civilizing effect in many domains. By now, the only way to attack a much weaker enemy is to construct a propaganda offensive depicting it as an imminent threat or perhaps engaged in genocide, with confidence that the military campaign will scarcely resemble an actual war".
Sound familiar? Guess this is a 'self-hating' Jew right? But wait, there's something wrong with that label! This man's talking about Iraq, not Palestine. Isn't it ironic how actions of grave consequence always seem to resemble each other, and yet people still manage to fall for the "HASBARA".
Tariq
ReplyDeletehere is good motherly and seriously benevolent advice to you - have your brain checked
- the people who know how to do it are called psychiatrists
- it is urgent really urgent your synapses are on some kind of overdrive malconnection trip
- but just some factual hint, the Hitlerites weren't protestant i.e. you are not only delusional you are also ignorant but that's not a malady against that a bit of reading can help
- I beg you seek professional help and get saved
Silke
Tarig
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention that I am not entitled to citizenship of Israel i.e. I wasn't born a Jew, I have not converted, I am not married to one and I have no intention to convert - if you need more proof let me know
- I was bombed as the nice Teutonic toddler that I was then, not quite blue-eyed more a bit on the green side but with an impeccable Aryan pedigree.
you should really do some catching up on your facts, maybe then your "anti-Zionism" dissolves into thin air and you have time and energy left to enjoy life.
Silke
And again, proof of your inability to fight fact with fact, as your fiction does not stand the test. You highlight one mistake, writing protestant instead of catholic, and then proceed to hurl a barrage of insults, proving 3 things. Firstly, your inability to prove anything you say as you resort to name calling instead of logical and legitimate arguing. Second, you immaturity and ignorance of genuine fact leading to your supressed mind simply following the 'party line'. And finally proving the very evident fact that I have been making since I began taking part in this discussion (if thats what you can call it when dealing with ardent zionists), that you are very much aware that you are in the wrong and have to resort to blatent lies, changing the subject, and when that fails, simple name calling and insults, the last refuge of the ignorant!
ReplyDeleteSilke ~ I was talking about Operation Cast Lead. Your first instinct was to compare bombing Gaza with Dresden as if Israel was bombing Germany. As if it was Gaza that invaded and occupied land from all its neighbors.
ReplyDeleteOn the off chance I get the inclination to debate WWII, you could try responding to what I say and not a silly caricature. I don't go around telling people to lie down when they're invaded. That's what supporters of Israel say to Arabs.
Es gibt mehr Dinge zwischen Himmel und Erde, als Eure Schulweisheit sich träumt. - Shakespeare
ReplyDeleteI wonder what Saul Alinsky would have said, could he read here what poor use certain people are making of his teaching - ts ts ts is my bet
I don't go around telling people to lie down when they're invaded
ReplyDeleteof course not you are telling that only to people who are getting shot at with "home-made" bombs and then only when they happen to be Israelis - n'est-ce pas?
Go and do some sorting in your brain
and tell those Gazans that once they allow as a minimum REGULAR visits to Gilad Shalit, stop their rocket shooting unconditionally, stop digging tunnels into Israel, make their leaders revoke their learing for genocide charta and last but not least stop those caricatures and TV-programs, then and maybe only then will I consider them to be worthy of polite society again. Oh and last but not least they of course have to stop harrassing girls and women into "decent" behaviour.
in case I have forgotten something I am sure you'll correct me
Silke
Regarding comment deletions, it's also worth noting that in Blogger comment sections (I know because I own one) only the administrator has the power to permanently delete a comment (without leaving a trace) but when the author of the comment deletes his own comment a trace saying 'This post has been removed by the author' remains, untouchable by the author of the comment (the blog administrator then has the option of permanently deleting the trace or not).
ReplyDeleteYitzchak either accidentally deleted his own comment and is trying to blames someone else or he's simply lying.
Gert,
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't Yitzach. And I did not delete my own post. Alberto did because it was long and eloquent public shaming which he simply could not take.
p.s. Comparing the tragic history of antisemitism to hatred for the terrorist group Hamas is obscene.
Gert
ReplyDeleteit is pure delight for me to read which of my wishes you chose to comment on and which you chose to leave alone - it is always all on the surface isn't it
- believe you me the German radio "resident"'s heart in Israel is bleeding every time he must tell anything from Gaza that doesn't suit his preferred image of the Gazans as holier than thou angels
- when he says girls are forced to wear a Kopftuch then I believe him and don't give me the it's their culture crap - it is child abuse - period - oh and please when was the last time Israelis threw political opponents from roofs to death?
again: Gilad Shalit, Rockets, Charter, "Mickey Mouse" which incidentally is a flagrant breach of copyright.
Silke
I confess that I am not as net-savvy as you - would you please tell me how I can go about delecting a comment here if I chose to? i.e. after I have published?
Silke is absolutely right: Hamas is a threat not just to Israelis but to its own people.
ReplyDeleteAnd Gert, don't give me that crap about "my friend told me so" -- there is plenty of evidence of Hamas' islamification of society, its persecution of Christians, oppression of women and political moderates, etc.
To lift the blockade Hamas need only release Shalit -- which is Israel's just and fair condition. Yet for years they refuse: isn't that a form of collective punishment of their own people?
It wasn't Yitzach. And I did not delete my own post. Alberto did because it was long and eloquent public shaming which he simply could not take.
ReplyDeleteI didn't delete any comment of yours and Alberto didn't either (all comments make it to my mailbox even if they're deleted afterwards).
In fact, all subscribers to this blog (and I think Gert is one) get all published comments mailed to their Gmail account. And no one has gotten your comment. You may have simply forgotten to press the Submit button. Happens in the best families.
Ib:
ReplyDelete"In fact, all subscribers to this blog (and I think Gert is one) get all published comments mailed to their Gmail account. And no one has gotten your comment. You may have simply forgotten to press the Submit button. Happens in the best families."
I did get both comments by email notification: the one that got mysteriously deleted and the one that still stands. That can't happen if the author simply forgot to press 'Submit', as far as I know. But it's a possibility, I guess...
Talking to a bunch of Ziomorons who refuse to see (or don't know) why Hamas came into being or why it was elected is like fitting wheels to a tomato: time consuming and utterly useless. These people probably believe G-d magically poofed Hamas into existence, a bit like He did Israel v.1.0.
Ernie's right: no point bothering with Ziotrolls, they've got history against them anyway...
- when he says girls are forced to wear a Kopftuch then I believe him and don't give me the it's their culture crap - it is child abuse - period
ReplyDeleteIt's a thin line between culture and barbarianism. I'll teach you how to make out one from the other.
--If a girl is forced to wear a hijab, it's barbarianism. If a boy is subjected to male genital mutilation at the tender age of eight days, it's culture.
--If an Iranian wrestler refuses to engage an Israeli, it's barbarianism. If a Jewish jeweller refuses to shake my wife's hand because she's impure, it's culture.
--If an artist who drew Muhammad cartoons is violently assaulted, it's barbarianism. If a Holocaust denier is violently assaulted, it's culture.
--If the Arab states deny the Holocaust, it's barbarianism. If Israel denies the Armenian Genocide, it's culture.
By now our readers may have gotten the pattern.
Ib:
ReplyDeleteYou're just another 'moral relativist', how can we trust anything you say to these people who are in full possession of 'moral clarity'? ;-)
Fake Ibrahim and Gert
ReplyDeleteyou teaching me anything is the joke of the day !
and Gerty-Babyboy when you accuse others of moral clarity then you should have yourself urgently checked because you are suffering from projection.
- Anyway both of you have made my day - big thank you for that
- I am out of here a happier person then I came into it
- ojeojeoje normally I get such good laughs only from professional comedians and have to pay to hear them - with you two I got it all for free
Silke
Fake-Ibrahim
ReplyDeletewhat is it if Norman Stone refuses to call the Armenian massacres a genocide?
Barbarianism (congratulations that's quite a Wortungetüm) or culture?
google him he's interesting and when and where did the state of Israel take a stance on whether it was genocide or it wasn't?
a bit more solid facts and a little less composing would do you a lot of good
Silke
PS: btw I believe Franz Werfel (and Agatha Christie) and don't give a hoot which label it is given by institutions.
//If a boy is subjected to male genital mutilation at the tender age of eight days, it's culture.
ReplyDeleteNo that's just an ancient form of STD prevention. Practiced by Jews, Muslims and most Americans. Dates back to ancient Egypt.
//If a Jewish jeweller refuses to shake my wife's hand because she's impure, it's culture.
No that's just barbaric.
//If a Holocaust denier is violently assaulted, it's culture.
When was a Holocaust denier violently assaulted? It seems to happen quite often with the Mohammed cartoonists.
//If Israel denies the Armenian Genocide, it's culture.
? The State of Israel has not denied the Armenian genocide in any way.
Here's one: When any country in the world fights terrorism, they are applauded. When Israel fights terrorism, it is condemned.
And when Alberto Yusuf is embarrassed by a post exposing his antisemitism he deletes it and then denies doing so.
It's "barbarism" not "barbarianism".
ReplyDeleteIt's "number of pieces" not "amount of pieces".
If you have a English-language blog you should really learn to spell.
of course not you are telling that only to people who are getting shot at with "home-made" bombs and then only when they happen to be Israelis - n'est-ce pas?
ReplyDeleteIsrael can get the rockets to stop - and has - by honoring the ceasefires it's agreed to. It doesn't even have to dissolve itself so the Gaza people may freely live again in their whole country, but that would also work.
I could tediously ask if you think the Israeli govt. is unfit for polite society, given it spends on the religious segment that enforces gender segregation on buses. Surprise me and give a straight answer.
Oh and just FYI, Zionists don't really care if Palestinian women are equal to men. Their only problem is with gentiles occupying Jewish land. They might act concerned to attract supporters in what you call polite society.
Anon
ReplyDeleteIbrahimleinchen (sorry German is the only language in which I know how to do a double diminuitive) is a linguist, not a spellolist
- you constantly disregard the higher realms in which Ibrahim the wannabe Great is operating - ts ts ts
;-)))))))
+Jewish jeweller+
ReplyDeleteThe casual use of this example is a form of classical antisemitism.
It's becoming increasingly open on this blog.
And you need to sign in with a google account to delete comments. Like this one I never use.
ReplyDeleteandrew r
ReplyDeletelast time I read the bus story it turned out the buses were privately financed
- sorry you got to come up with something better unless you are all forbidding private enterprise of course
- also I don't remember any honour killings of Jewish women, do you? which means in my book that if a woman wants to leave she can do so without getting knifed.
Anon
I guess to get them to show their anti-semitism openly is the reason why you and I are wasting our time around here
- and we are being successful they are getting there - here is Anon 7:14 at the previous post in which et Ibrahimsche moaned about circumcision
"Until we send them to the gassum chambers again"
and none of Ibrahim's buddies, let alone Ibrahim, blinked an eye-lid -
//there is plenty of evidence of Hamas' islamification of society, its persecution of Christians, oppression of women and political moderates, etc.//
ReplyDeleteIf this plenty of evidence exists why not show it to us? Oh let me guess, is it because it's as feeble as the wipe Israel off the map claim?
Tarig
ReplyDeletethat mistranslation argument is one of my favourite Catch 22s
the (Engllish) off the map wiping stemmed from IRIB's own translation - so if you are saying it was "feeble" then you are saying Iran's translators are not capable of translating their own president properly
so take your choice - either Iran's translators are a bunch of ignoramusses or Ajad-dingsbums has said it
- but beware you can't have it both ways - it is either or
and if you vote for incompetent translators I doubt Iranians will like to read that about themselves - millenia old high culture, big civilization and doesn't even know how to translate properly their own president - ts ts ts
Ok, who gives a fuck about The Jewish contribution to music? We know you are all singularly brillant, while utterly blameless. The sophistry employed in the defense of abject barbarism always astonishes me. You are all simotaneously powerfull and constantly the victim at all times. This is cognitive dissonence.
ReplyDeleteI see there was some speculation about the deleted comment that appears before my comment beginning with the words "Your statement . . . " There was an unintended word in one sentence that turned it into nonsense, so I deleted it and posted it again with the word corrected.
ReplyDeleteThe govt. spends on Egged and it has gender segregated routes. Don't try to weasel out of this.
ReplyDeleteIf you have a problem with honor killings, what do you think of forcing women to give birth at checkpoints? Or is oppressing women self defense when Israeli soldiers do it?
Andrew, while I agree that the segregated Egged buses for the Haredim should not be sponsored with government funds, but comparing this type of voluntary self-segregation by some religious communities to honor killings across the Muslim world is simply ridiculous. Kind of like comparing circumcision to forcing women to wear the burkha, which Ibrahim did earlier on this thread.
ReplyDeleteThe comment applauding gas chambers was made on this thread: http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com/2010/05/circumcision-in-nutshell.html
ReplyDeletelook at the hate crime stats in just about every country (Jews are always the most targeted group) and you'll see that concern is extremely warranted. Read the bile spewing out of the Arab world against us on memri.org. Get your head out of your ass and look around you. The irrational anger and hate exhibited by people like you is exactly why we must do all we can to fight antisemitism.
ReplyDeleteAnon, you might have been on to something if I was trying to make the case gender inequality in Israel takes on the same form as in conservative Muslim societies. Except, no, the point was how much can the Israeli govt. countenance before they're unfit for polite society in Silke's eyes. And since Silke makes no distinction between all 1.5 million people in Gaza, the fact any segment of Israeli society enacts gender segregation should tarnish all Israelis. This is Silke's logic, not mine.
ReplyDeleteDo you think the FBI is a credible source?
ReplyDeleteRacial bias
In 2008, law enforcement agencies reported that 4,704 offenses among single-bias hate crime incidents were racially motivated. Of these offenses:
* 72.6 percent were motivated by anti-black bias.
* 17.3 percent stemmed from anti-white bias.
* 5.5 percent were a result of bias against groups of individuals consisting of more than one race (anti-multiple races, group).
* 3.4 percent resulted from anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.
* 1.3 percent were motivated by anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias. (Based on Table 1.)
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/incidents.html
Lastly, given that we have several anonymous posters and no way to distinguish between them, that comment could be yours for all the fuck we know. So can the crocodile tears. It's not moving.
ReplyDeleteandrew r
ReplyDeleteyou really are the master of narrowly focused thinking. Do you wear blinkers to help you come up with them?
anyway here is my view:
"they're unfit for polite society in Silke's eyes."
the Gazans are unfit for polite society as long as they don't manage to keep their governing entity from publicly calling for genocide, throwing political opponents from roof tops, denying the Red Cross access to Gilad Shalit etc etc
they have a democratically elected government thus by democracies rules they may be held responsible for what that government does.
by the same standard the 1936 Olympics should have been boycotted but no, they were not, presumably because some bleeding hearts "andrew"s argued that not all Germans were hell-bent on murdering their compatriots and one couldn't mix them with the rest.
here it is again in a short sentence so you are able to grasp it:
If is a democracy than folks are responsible for who governs them and that means all them
Silke
The FBI stats are meaningless because Jews are lumped in with "whites". The majority of attacks against "whites" are in fact antisemitic. 2% of the US population is Jewish, yet 15% of all hate crimes in the US are against Jews. This is a shocking fact. Europe is of course much worse. Read this and shudder: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm
ReplyDeletep.s. This notion of a Zionist collaboration with the Nazis is just complete mythology with not a shred of evidence. Not a single serious historian will lend this vile slander any credibility. Quite the opposite: the Zionists mobilized the so-called Jewish brigade which fought valiantly under the British in North Africa. It's shameful to propagate this lie.
Then Edwin Black who is not a Zionist did not write The Transfer Agreement, the latest edition of which does not have an afterword by Abraham Foxman.
ReplyDelete*yawn*
they have a democratically elected government thus by democracies rules they may be held responsible for what that government does
ReplyDeleteThe Israelis have a democratically elected government. An Israeli cabinet minister has said that gays are sick people that need to be cured. As a result of this incitement, last year two people were murdered at a gay center in Tel Aviv.
All Israelis should be held accountable for this government-incited double murder. Is this your logic, or have I gotten anything wrong?
looking back over the last four weeks or so of this blog I must conclude that commenting here serves only one purpose i.e. "feeding the beast"
ReplyDeleteand cheers Fake Ibrahim that applies to you also - your question is not only sillybut out of context also and if you don't know that for yourself - well then you've got quite a problem - but who hasn't who indulges in keeping "gassum" company
Silke
Good point Silke. You never hear a "Zionist" call for the killing of Arabs or anyone else on this blog. But vitriolic antisemitic posts - including celebrations of the gas chambers - abound. They are not even questioned let alone deleted. Everyone is indifferent. How do these people look themselves in the mirror?
ReplyDeleteThe point about Jewish music was clearly a rebuttal to the claim that Gazans can do without bananas and avocados, because Israel allows them to import flour so that they won't die from starvation. By this logic, the prisoners in the Warsaw ghetto could do without Jewish music, because non-Jewish music is much more basic and important. Anyone would agree that in the menu of classical music, antisemites like Wagner or Schumann are staples, while George Gershwin is a side dish.
ReplyDeleteSome here have brought up Mahler or Mendelssohn to support the fiction of an outstanding Jewish contribution to symphonic music. Certainly, neither of them would be allowed to immigrate to the State of Israel.
The "gassum" comment was a response to the following supremacist comment:
ReplyDeleteNothing about being Jewish hurts. We are indeed blessed. The most influential, brilliant, wealthy, powerful and moral people on earth. The Chosen.
which I didn't delete either. By now it should be clear to you that no comments are deleted on this blog, except by their own authors. (BTW, Silke, if you want to do that, just click on the trash can at the bottom of your comment.)
I don't delete crazy comments because my target audience is made up of intelligent people who know better.
Mahler and Mendelssohn were both Jewish by any measure, including their own sense of identity. They are at least the equals of Wagner and Schumann.
ReplyDeleteTo call the Jewish contribution to music less than outstanding is to show your ignorance of musical history.
Even though Jews were not let into musical conservatories until the 20th century, nevertheless they dominated French and German music throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. Hence the number of Jews on pedestals adorning the Paris opera house. Hence Wagner's polemic against the Jewish influence of European music. Hence the 198 pages of musical geniuses listed by Wikipedia.
The Jews basically invented avant-garde contemporary classical music: Schoenberg, Ligeti, Kurtag, Copland, Babbitt. Need I say more?
And of course they were the pioneers of Jazz and rock (see previous post on this subject).
This particular line of argumentation is going to get you nowhere, Ibrahim, except make you look like a musical ignoramus.
here is Fake-Ibrahim sucking it up to the "Zionists".
ReplyDeleteWhatever it takes to get whatever your fancy is up to you will do it - won't you wannabe-Ibrahim?
Silke
"The melody haunts me to this day and I can play it on the piano, but I'd like to listen to the original version again."
http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/04/window-to-hope-and-despair.html?showComment=1271213416336#c1871678048450669685
Anon 6:22
ReplyDeleteyou hit the nail on the head
- one guy celebrates being Jewish and that justifies another one calling for the murder of millions and millions - but that's how it has always worked, hasn't it?
Fake-Ibrahim really attracts the kind of "target audience" he is aiming at "intelligent" people as if intelligence would protect anybody from anything or as Alfred Andersch asked after a run-in with Himmler's father "schützt Humanismus denn vor gar nichts?" - does humanism protect one from anything? (lousy translation I know, but I am not a "linguist") - my answer is no it doesn't
Silke
So Alberto, one poster is (justly) proud of being Jewish and you think that calling for gas chambers is the appropriate response to that pride? Idiot.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you keep calling me Alberto and I don't delete your posts further attests to my commitment not to delete any contribution, even if they're hateful or made in bad faith.
"Alberto" - that's your name isn't it? It's certainly not "Ibrahim" - that's a made-up name to give you more anti-ionist cred.
ReplyDeleteJust love kissing that Zionist ass don't you Alberto. That suck-up to Yaacov was indeed disgusting coming from you.
ReplyDeleteCheck it out Silke, you'll love it!
Anon 7:20
ReplyDeleteto the best of my knowledge Ibrahim ibn Yusuf was invented to lure Dr. Yaacov Lozowick into a one on one Israeli-Palestinian peace seeking enterprise. Also to the best of my knowledge it didn't take Dr. Yaacov Lozowick long to find out that Ibrahim was a Fake and an impostor and whatever else you want to call him and that he had tried to dupe Dr. Lozowick. And if you take care to look at "Ibrahim"'s profile all the way down on the right side you'll find the link to his "scoup" in his profile - also note how proud he seems to be from the Che's place a guy who certainly knew how to enjoy a bit of mass executions.
anyway whether his name is Alberto or Barbarella or whether he invented Ibrahim for that occasion or another one he is in no position whatsoever to ask for good faith treatment for himself.
Silke
Anon @ 6:21, please be mindful of the comment I responded to. Regardless of motive or practical result, Ha'avara was a case of systematic cooperation between the Labour Zionists and the German govt.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm a fraud. My name is not Ibrahim Ibn Yusuf. Making me dishonorable company is David Copperfield, the magician. Did you know that he is not a character from a Charles Dickens novel? Shocking.
ReplyDelete"+Jewish jeweller+
ReplyDeleteThe casual use of this example is a form of classical antisemitism.
Which bozo came up with that one? Metioning a 'Jewish jeweller' is now 'classical antisemitism'.
If I took any advice from whoever came up with it, I'd have no choice but to shun and avoid Jews altogether, for fear of saying something wrong and who knows: suffer the consequences...
"In the last few months I've been active debating Zionists on their own blogs, in some cases dealing them humiliating defeats. "
ReplyDeletethat's pure Fake-Ibrahim dreaming that he is somebody - either he is straight fantasizing or the Zionists weren't really Zionists - of the ones I have encountered none will suffer a defeat from Ibrahim let alone a humiliating one.
Somehow I knew right away that this wannabe Ibrahim is suffering from Megalomania - a strutting nobody - the more he postures and the more I read him up the more I congratulate myself on considering him an "Angeber" a bragger right away.
and btw Ibrahim I very much doubt that Popper would appreciate being called an Austrian philosopher. If you throw your "Bildung" around, first get some
all "Zionist"-Anons go and read the link below and enjoy - don't miss out on the comments. And in case somebody wonders why I keep harping on little Ibrahim wanting some fun - there is something he commented on Yaacov's blog about Yaacov's son and war injuries for which I'll never forgive him
Silke
http://judeoarabconspiracy.blogspot.com/2008/05/on-not-heeding-popper.html
Regarding Hamas I rather 'like' Efraim Inbar's honesty:
ReplyDelete"Turning to the situation of the 1.5 million residents of Gaza, he referred to an article he had published in early February in which he argued that the international community should not do anything to help the rebuild the homes and public infrastructure that were so extensively destroyed by Israel during the recent war. In the article he argued that the international community should “not be drawn into sentimental escapades of rebuilding and humanitarian assistance that undercut our paramount strategic goals.”
...[H]e then commented with a smile that “Hamas is good for the Jews! [he means Zionists of course] As long as they are there it is a gift to us!”
Ask yourself why he said that?
Revionist Zionism in a nutshell; "wouldn't suffer a defeat" even if it kills us.
ReplyDeleteYeah Gert, if you fuckin knew anything you'd know at least that to call Jews "jewellers" (i.e. to characterize them by that specific trade) carries with it a bloody history of antisemitism. For centuries, and through the Nazi period, Jews were killed for their relationship to the precious jewels business. Your ignorance is showing again.
ReplyDeleteI see you didn't answer this yet Ibrahim. YOU DON'T ANSWER BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ANSWER
ReplyDeleteWould Wagner have written his antisemitic polemic "The Jews in Music" - which argued that European music was being dominated and corrupted by Jews - had their influence on it been "almost negligible"?
Read the story of Wagner's attack on the "Jewish influence on European music" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik
Now ask yourself again if the Jewish contribution to European classical music can be considered "almost negligible"!
P.s. remember this was before the great renaissance of Jewish composers in the 20th century...
If you were an honest man, Alberto/Ibrahim, you would admit your mistake on this blog.
It was a real anecdote. On our first trip to New York City, we went into a Jewish jeweller's store to buy a very expensive jewel for my wife.
ReplyDeleteWhen we were done with the deal, we were all very happy and the jeweller and I shook hands. When my wife tried to do as much, he refused with a grin and proceeded to explain to her Judaism's weird theories about modesty and impurity. He was a gentleman, though: he offered to undo the deal if she felt offended.
"It was a real anecdote."
ReplyDeleteYou don't get it. Whether it was "real" or not doesn't matter. The choice of example itself is not innocent.
As the great blogger Norm Geras recently wrote: antisemitism is NOT "an attitude of mind, something inward" but rather "its being a set of ideological and discursive themes and practices."
http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2010/05/antisemitism-as-attitude-and-as-speech.html
This is a prototypical example of antisemitism as a discursive theme, rather than "an attitude of the mind".
Bubela hide in the barn The Cossacks are attackting the village with "discursive themes and practices" This is how insane this has become, the mere mention of the word "Jew" is now potentially Anti-Semitic? That is if the one who is verbalizing is "percieved" out of the ever shrinking in group. Of course Jews themselves aren't immune they're just called "self-hating" which is akin to nigger-lover in its totalist sentiment.
ReplyDelete"He was a gentleman, though: he offered to undo the deal if she felt offended."
ReplyDeleteah now you tell the rest of the story ...
before you paraded the obviously very decent man as somebody quite different
and for the Anons here I just remembered having heard something about Meyerbeer some time ago.
Below it is in a nutshell - take especially note of what it says about Rienzi - why seem such stories always so déjà vue in their dreariness ?
Silke
"The vitriolic campaign of Richard Wagner against Meyerbeer was to a great extent responsible for the decline of Meyerbeer's popularity after his death in 1864. This campaign was as much a matter of personal spite as of racism - Wagner had learnt a great deal from Meyerbeer and indeed Wagner's early opera Rienzi (1842) has, facetiously, been called 'Meyerbeer's most successful work'. Meyerbeer supported the young Wagner, both financially and in obtaining a production of Rienzi at Dresden."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Meyerbeer
Would Wagner have written his antisemitic polemic "The Jews in Music" - which argued that European music was being dominated and corrupted by Jews - had their influence on it been "almost negligible"?
ReplyDeleteRarely do we see such a self-defeating argument. Do you realize you're giving credence to an antisemite's perception of a disproportionate Jewish influence?
may the best one win !!!
ReplyDelete- that's what my teacher told me was what was revolutionary and new when the Olympics more than 2500 years ago came into being and the "West" has come back to honour this principle again and again.
So if Fake-Ibrahim understands Anon's argument as meaning that Jewish influence in music was "disproportionate" he shoots himself in the foot because he admits that Jews were the better musicians always and all along and thus true to the principle established at the Olympics their influence SHOULD BE "disproportionate".
Yaacov is right you should get yourself a life Ibrahim
Silke
And in case somebody wonders why I keep harping on little Ibrahim wanting some fun - there is something he commented on Yaacov's blog about Yaacov's son and war injuries for which I'll never forgive him
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting approach. I'll never forgive Yaacov for many of the comments he made during Operation Cast Lead and my course is to avoid any interaction with him.
As ever, Silke, you try to muddy the waters when the argument is very clear. Anon May 16, 2010 1:26 PM claims that Jewish music was influential because Wagner devoted an antisemitic pamphlet to it. But antisemites are irrational people; they don't base their hate on real facts.
ReplyDeleteWagner's pamphlet doesn't prove that Jewish musicians dominated the European music scene, any more than Auschwitz proves that the Jews dominated the European economy.
Ibrahim,
ReplyDeleteWagner's argument against Offenbach, Meyerbeer, Mendelssohn, Halevy, etc. in "The Jews in Music" does indeed show the disproportionate influence the Jews had achieved on German music by the early 19th century. Indeed, of the 5 top billed composers, 4 were Jewish.
Likewise the involvement of Jews in French music. For how else can you explain why three out of twelve figures adorning the roof of the Paris Opera were Jews? Answer me that Ibrahim without resorting to sophisms!
I forgot to mention one of the most important Jewish-French musicians, Jacques Bizet.
ReplyDelete//and if you vote for incompetent translators I doubt Iranians will like to read that about themselves - millenia old high culture, big civilization and doesn't even know how to translate properly their own president - ts ts ts//
ReplyDeleteTo correct your lies, the actual translation given by ISNA was:
"Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement."
The occupying regime was then changed to Israel (big difference). So it wasn't Iranian error, it was changes by western media outlets.
But again off point, why point to the example, why not discuss the actual point? Scared are we?
in case Tarig and andrew and Ibrahim want to strut around beating their chest claiming they've defeated another "Zionist" they are welcome to it. By now they have become so boring that I can't muster the energy to go on.
ReplyDeleteBravo guys - well done!
Silke
Anon 1:17 PM:
ReplyDelete"Yeah Gert, if you fuckin knew anything you'd know at least that to call Jews "jewellers" (i.e. to characterize them by that specific trade) [...]"
To essentialise Jewry as all being jewellers would be racist, yes. But where did anyone do that?
"You don't get it. Whether it was "real" or not doesn't matter. The choice of example itself is not innocent."
Ridiculous, Anon, you're asking us to tip toe around Jews because we could accidentally cause offence. That demand is in itself antisemitic because it prescribes treating Jews one way and everyone else another way. You're nuts.
As regards, 'the great blogger Norman Geras', Geras is really nothing more than a Zionist.
What's more Anon, your attitude is very reminiscent of the BNP towards non-whites. They claim 'White is best'. When met with the counter claim that that attitude is racist, they deny that it's racism and claim it's true (Whites' superiority). You're a Jewish supremacist.
ReplyDeleteTarig:
ReplyDeleteYou're right about the 'Wipe Israel off the map' thingy, completely.
It's very typical of the West's MO when it comes to Iran/Israel. This flap did enormous damage, was then later quietly dropped but the damage cannot be undone. What moral and ethical heroes we really are!
Indeed, of the 5 top billed composers, 4 were Jewish. Likewise the involvement of Jews in French music. For how else can you explain why three out of twelve figures adorning the roof of the Paris Opera were Jews? Answer me that Ibrahim without resorting to sophisms!
ReplyDeleteIt takes some nerve for a purveyor of sophisms to ask others not to use them.
My dear friend, I've been studying and appreciating classical music since my early childhood. By age nine, I was glued every day to my two favorite programs on National Radio -- The Noon Concerto and The Evening Concerto. I know all the anecdotes and wee details of the lives of the greatest composers. That's why I don't have to rush to Wikipedia to know that Mendelssohn did not convert to advance his career; or that Georges (not Jacques) Bizet was not a Jew, although his wife, the daughter of Fromenthal Halévy, was; or that, speaking of Halévy, Wagner praised him profusely, and did not trash him in "Judaism in Music" (not "The Jews in Music" ) as you claim.
But your factual errors are nothing compared to your fallacies. Box office success, or having a bust on the façade of an opera building, are not reliable indicators of the musical importance of a composer. Otherwise, Burt Bacharach would be more important than Schubert.
One would be hard-pressed to name a composer who was Jewish without if's and but's (i.e., not a convert, not a half-Jew, not a renegade) and who made a substantive contribution to today's standard symphonic repertoir. There's nothing wrong with that, and the Jews have over 300 Nobel Prizes to boast about.
Oh how cultured this Ibrahim is, absolutely marvellous, so educated, so know everything and so rich, that he can afford to take his wife to a Jewish Jeweller in New York to buy her a very expensive piece of something - sink down on your knees Anons and adore
ReplyDeleteand the way he talks right up there with the best of the most boring and snobbish punditry
- only how come that some of the by today's whimsy greatest in literature were almost forgotten at some time which, to the best of my knowledge, applies to musicians also. Let's build an opera house on a hill, give a family of marketing geniuses state money galore and start a Meyerbeer cult.
Silke
Besides being an antisemite Alberto "Yusuf" you really are one pretentious geek.
ReplyDeleteYou know nothing about music if you think you claim that the Jewish contribution to music has been "almost negligible". You could say that about the musical contribution of almost any other people, but if you say that about the Jews it is so demonstrably untrue that you tar yourself as an antisemite and an imbecile.
Anybody who walks into a classical music store will back me up which is why you are all alone in defending your ridiculous position on this blog.
Saying the Jewish contribution to music is "almost negligible" is like saying the Brazilian contributon to soccer is "almost negligible". In other words, absolutely retarded.
This kind of embarrassing nonsense is precisely why your blog will be a testimony to your stupidity. If you have children I'd do my best to erase any trace of this blog.
Anon 8:38 PM and Anon 9:23 PM, assuming you're not the same person (but you probably are), you've neither presented anything near a credible counterargument to Ibrahim's argument on the Jewish contribution to the standard symphonic repertoir. If anything both of you (?) sound rather envious of Ib's factual knowledge.
ReplyDeleteThe mystery remains to me why you continue to be tolerated here when frankly you're enough to invoke, wrongly of course, temporary anti-Jewish feelings in the most antiracist of people.
You must lead a very sad life, a Jewish supremacist constantly looking for antisemites underneath each bed and behind every tree. If this is modern Zionism then that's another reason to do away with it.
If you showed up on my blog and behaved like this you'd have exhausted my considerable patience a long time ago...
just one more on Ibrahim:
ReplyDeletehave you noticed that he stopped harping on Mahler because on Mahler an authority who may be even known in Argentina was cited?
But when people quote Wikipedia that is nothing for wannabe-Ibrahim from Rosario - oh no, no big name attached, no expertise in there, all volunteers, can't be anything worthwhile - only Wikipedia has come out before Encyclopedia Britannica more than once. But come to think of it, maybe Ibrahim's music "expertise" wasn't good enough for Wikipedia? - not only the unappreciated artist but the unappreciated expert also? - come on Ibrahim, tell mama about all the places where they haven't wanted you?
Ibrahim doesn't even know that the smartest people are those who know what they don't know and they never ever ever claim to be know-everythings - just the other way around they'll always be the first to mention, if they don't know something. Whoever claims to be an I-know-everything has outed himself as a provincial of the worst kind.
But Ibrahim goes one better - he corrects a self-made translation with a published one - and that man Ibrahim claims to be a linguist i.e. a man who knows something about language - over at Yaacov's he even claims to be capable of interpreting the law - the man is a fraud in every field.
Silke
Let's imagine for a moment that Ibrahim wouldn't have decided to devote his life to slander and instead would have started a blog telling people what it meant to get through everyday life in a country that had defaulted.
ReplyDeleteHe probably would have hit it really big at the very latest when Greece wobbled and would be up there with the most quoted and referred to and with maybe a book deal in the offing.
But for that it would have taken more humility than a braggard can muster and less of an urge to "defeat".
Now it is too late because wherever he would start a tale like that what he did around here would follow him sooner or later.
Again you blew it Ibrahim
Silke
oh and please when was the last time Israelis threw political opponents from roofs to death?
ReplyDeleteI don't know, but I do know when the last time was that Israeli soldiers dragged an Israeli political opponent along the ground and beat and kicked her while she was lying helpless.
Incidentally, it's on video.
ah we are talking now through videos now, so here is one you made me somehow remember (presumably the version from 1941)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwl1UIKZIX8
and here's the same one from about 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndI4cRBLjBE&feature=related
get a life as Yaacov would say - Silke
What's the bets not one of these Zionists have the balls to even begin to approach the video you posted IB. I'm almost certain all of them will do exactly what Silke has just tried to do (even though I distinctly remember reading that he didn't want any further input on this thread, because in his words he was bored, i.e. he couldn't beat fact with fiction so he wanted to give up), and simply try to change the subject yet again! Come on, just one of you, prove me wrong, please just try and approach the point IB made, do any of you have the backbone?
ReplyDeleteGert
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't dropped, just modified (again) so the lie could persist under the same guise, afterall they threatened to do it already:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/iran-nuke-could-wipe-israel-off-map-in-seconds-1.279361
The bottom line is, zionists need lies like this to stand any chance of survival. Their level of projectionism is unrivalled, it amazes me. If countries were judged by the same standards as people the zionist entity wouldn't get the chair for their crimes against humanity, it would be thrown in the funny farm and the key melted down.
Tarig Tarig
ReplyDeletehow can you stoop so low to get in a tiffy about what a woman says - ts ts ts
Silke
PS advice from Mama - have your heart/blood pressure/bile etc. etc. checked - overdrive in immature men is highly detrimental to health
You sure like talking to boring people.
ReplyDeleteyes andrew you are right
ReplyDeletemy vicious malevolent teuton always gets the better of me
and as a lover of German dialectx I am entitled to: was gebb isch för mei dumm Gebabbel von vorhin - I'd translate it for you but I am too scared of Ibrahim, the wannabe linguist's scathing critique.
Silke
Gert,
ReplyDeleteYou just want an echo chamber where you can spout your antisemitic nonsense without being called on it.
Gert and Andrew are like Alberto Yusuf's little trolls. I'd call them Niebelungen except those were meant to be Jews.
ReplyDeleteI love being proven right!
ReplyDelete