tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post8300707525370006661..comments2024-03-22T22:27:18.642-07:00Comments on The Hasbara Buster: Who walked away from whatIbrahim Ibn Yusufhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-73985975008495749472011-01-29T02:28:54.654-08:002011-01-29T02:28:54.654-08:00What Israel ought to do now is take steps to ensur...What Israel ought to do now is take steps to ensure the long-term viability of its Jewish majority. Small wonder the Palestinians walked away.My Bloghttp://newpillshealth.paidtoblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-8675539186690872642008-10-12T00:40:00.000-07:002008-10-12T00:40:00.000-07:00Caroline Glick just used the figure "ninety percen...Caroline Glick just used the figure "ninety percent":<BR/><BR/>http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2008/10/israel_and_the_palestinians_en.asp<BR/><BR/>Is she one of those Hasbara-mongers your blog exists to refute?Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-3002563629953778202008-09-27T20:13:00.000-07:002008-09-27T20:13:00.000-07:00No.No.Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-21438025976008027532008-09-26T22:37:00.000-07:002008-09-26T22:37:00.000-07:00if you are going to present an elaborate post with...<I>if you are going to present an elaborate post with maps and analysis as a corrective to sloppy citations of the facts, you are asking to be judged by a higher standard</I><BR/><BR/>Like when a country's prime minister says "we have the most moral army in the world"?Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-63210509985086563552008-09-24T20:53:00.000-07:002008-09-24T20:53:00.000-07:00For God's sake, do I have to actually name Zionist...<I>For God's sake, do I have to actually name Zionists making the claim I refute?</I><BR/><BR/>Most of what you cite looks like pretty low quality stuff. But yes, the reader should be given a chance to examine the merchandise.<BR/><BR/><I>Those accounts merit some inquiry. Ross is a frequent speaker at AIPAC meetings -- maybe he wrote the book to ensure lifetime speaking engagements with the Israel lobby?</I><BR/><BR/>He was there. He was doing a lot of the negotiating. That doesn't make him the last word, necessarily, but he is going to be a reference point no matter what.<BR/><BR/><I>All blogging about the Israel/Palestine conflict is crap. Pure and simple propaganda. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.</I><BR/><BR/>Speak for yourself. Anyway, if you are going to present an elaborate post with maps and analysis as a corrective to sloppy citations of the facts, you are asking to be judged by a higher standard. So show some familiarity with the state of the debate and the most commonly referenced sources or face criticism if you don't. You can at least point your reader to a writer who reviews the sources.Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-24259134298468307862008-09-24T10:59:00.000-07:002008-09-24T10:59:00.000-07:00I think there is a lot of sloppy discussion of the...<I>I think there is a lot of sloppy discussion of these issues on both sides.</I><BR/><BR/>Yep, and I'm exposing the sloppiness of the Zionist side, in particular the claim "Barak offered 97% in Camp David and Arafat turned him down." If you want to expose the anti-Zionists' sloppiness, including mine, you're welcome to.<BR/><BR/><I>What is the point of refuting nameless "Zionists" you can't be bothered to quote?</I><BR/><BR/>For God's sake, do I have to actually name Zionists making the claim I refute? Next thing you'll ask me to name a few people who believe in horoscope, because you doubt that there are any.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, here are a few quotes:<BR/><BR/><I>What happened at Camp David ? (September, 2000). After US sponsored Peace talks, Israeli PM Barak offered 97% of the West Bank parts of East Jerusalem</I> <A HREF="http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:X54bNPtED7gJ:neworleans.ujcfedweb.org/getfile.asp%3Fid%3D10038+%22barak+offered+97%22+%22camp+david%22&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=ar" REL="nofollow">(Source)</A><BR/><BR/><I>The main problem is: Yasser Arafat.<BR/>why?: in 1999 (if i remember correctly), Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak (Israeli PM at the time) went to Camp David to try sign a treaty.<BR/>Barak offered 97% (!!!!!!!!) of the west bank.</I> <A HREF="http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:DtjBIFcwdJQJ:filesharingtalk.com/vb3/archive/index.php/t-32744.html+%22barak+offered+97%22+%22camp+david%22&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=13&gl=ar" REL="nofollow">(Source)</A><BR/><BR/><I> In 2000, at Camp David, Ehud Barak offered 97% of the West Bank & the Gaza strip to Arafat for a Palestinian State, at the outset (before negotiations started)!</I> <A HREF="http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Sdo4cle_5CEJ:www.hiphopmusic.com/archives/000217.html+%22barak+offered+97%22+%22camp+david%22&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=ar" REL="nofollow">(Source)</A><BR/><BR/><I>When in 2000 at Camp David Ehud Barak offered 97 percent of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and half of Jerusalem as a resolution to the conflict...</I> <A HREF="http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/118737" REL="nofollow">(Source)</A>.<BR/><BR/><I>The current Palestinian position recalls the Summer of 2000 at Camp David, where when offered all of Gaza and nearly 97 percent of the West Bank, Arafat caused the talks to break down by insisting on the "right of return."</I> <A HREF="http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:eBVkiTRv44wJ:www.alonben-meir.com/articles/read/id/90+%2297+percent+of+the+west+bank%22+%22camp+david%22&hl=es&ct=clnk&cd=21&gl=ar" REL="nofollow">(Source)</A><BR/><BR/>These are Jewish communities, university professors, essay writers at Daniel Pipe's site or just plain ordinary citizens repeating the canard. What's the point of refuting them? Well, I'm furious that this is the discourse that has been engraved in the people's minds.<BR/><BR/><I>It isn't reasonable to ignore the accounts of the people who were there and present an inference instead. </I><BR/><BR/>Those accounts merit some inquiry. Ross is a frequent speaker at AIPAC meetings -- maybe he wrote the book to ensure lifetime speaking engagements with the Israel lobby? And what about his figures? Does he talk about 91% of the West Bank beyond the Green Line, or of the West Bank minus the already annexed zones?<BR/><BR/><I>The post just seems like propaganda. A self-respecting reader would want some account of the serious discussion that has come before and your post's relationship to it.</I><BR/><BR/>Are there any self-respecting readers left?<BR/><BR/>All blogging about the Israel/Palestine conflict is crap. Pure and simple propaganda. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-53877688143248147902008-09-24T01:18:00.000-07:002008-09-24T01:18:00.000-07:00I think you're aware that this claim is made by ce...<I>I think you're aware that this claim is made by certain "Zionists"</I><BR/><BR/>I think there is a lot of sloppy discussion of these issues on both sides. What is the point of refuting nameless "Zionists" you can't be bothered to quote?<BR/><BR/><I>Well, I'm part of the controversy!</I><BR/><BR/>I mean the controversy that resulted from differing accounts from the actual negotiating teams, the "revisionist" account of Camp David, etc.<BR/><BR/><I>it seems reasonable to think that the land to be retained would be 15 percent, unless he was talking about different settlers</I><BR/><BR/>It isn't reasonable to ignore the accounts of the people who were there and present an inference instead. <BR/><BR/><I>More specifically, can you point to official Israeli maps, on .gov.il sites, that substantially differ from the ones I published?</I><BR/><BR/>You might check out the controversy over the maps in Dennis Ross's book and Jimmy Carter's use of them. IIRC, the negotiations themselves did not produce official maps. A map on this topic is a visual aid for someone's claims. You write "the maps suggest otherwise" as if there are official maps that everyone agrees on. Here is a link to one of the Ross maps:<BR/><BR/>http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/rossmap2.html<BR/><BR/><I>Quite on the contrary, I want this blog to be visited by Hasbara peddlers.</I><BR/><BR/>The post just seems like propaganda. A self-respecting reader would want some account of the serious discussion that has come before and your post's relationship to it.Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-41704659392055142542008-09-22T19:49:00.000-07:002008-09-22T19:49:00.000-07:00My answers:1. Does Dennis Ross claim that Barak of...My answers:<BR/><BR/>1. Does Dennis Ross claim that Barak offered 97% of the West Bank and Arafat rejected it? Because I think you're aware that this claim is made by certain "Zionists," particularly in, but not restricted to, the blogosphere. And that's the claim I'm debunking; I never said I was presenting the ultimate analysis of Camp David and Taba.<BR/><BR/>2. Well, I'm part of the controversy! I'm making a point that has never been made as far as I know, namely that "Zionists" disingenuously mix the 97% <B>Taba offer</B> with Arafat's rejection of the <B>Camp David offer</B> to claim that "Barak offered 97% and Arafat rejected it."<BR/><BR/>3. Barak says that keeping 80% of the settlers in Israel would require retaining 15% of the West Bank land. Since Barak's position in Camp David was keeping 80% of the settlers in Israel, it seems reasonable to think that the land to be retained would be 15 percent, unless he was talking about different settlers.<BR/><BR/>4. They purport to be Barak's two offers and they come from <I>Le Monde Diplomatique</I>. Can <B>you</B> point to maps that fundamentally change the picture? More specifically, can you point to official Israeli maps, on .gov.il sites, that substantially differ from the ones I published?<BR/><BR/>5. No. Quite on the contrary, I want this blog to be visited by Hasbara peddlers. I'll learn more from them than from people who think like me.Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-35879205206863965602008-09-22T13:15:00.000-07:002008-09-22T13:15:00.000-07:00Just some quick thoughts:1. Instead of refuting of...Just some quick thoughts:<BR/><BR/>1. Instead of refuting offstage straw "Zionists" why don't you address the claims of somoene authoritative whom you probably disagree with, like Dennis Ross?<BR/><BR/>2. Why don't you acknowledge that there is some controversy concerning these facts? Jewish Virtual Library does and Wikipedia has the discussion page.<BR/><BR/>3. Where did you get the idea that Barak's later recommendations for possibly unilateral withdrawl consitute evidence of what was offered at Camp David? <BR/><BR/>4. What are those maps and where do they come from? Does everyone agree with them? Are there other maps?<BR/><BR/>5. Who is this post written for? Someone with no background at all who won't think of any of the above questions?Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.com