tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post8201490188837339040..comments2024-03-22T22:27:18.642-07:00Comments on The Hasbara Buster: Enforcing PesachIbrahim Ibn Yusufhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-76553007784075774602010-04-06T21:14:09.630-07:002010-04-06T21:14:09.630-07:00'The Court [ICJ] concludes that all these terr...'The Court [ICJ] concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.' (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1677.pdf)<br /><br />I wonder if that was the International Law Bogus Yaacov was alluding to when he wrote, 'the two are not the same by international law'?Ernie Halfdramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06463362099448607727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-31962299288017712402010-04-06T17:19:31.167-07:002010-04-06T17:19:31.167-07:00Fake Ibrahim looked blank and told me I shouldn...<i>Fake Ibrahim looked blank and told me I shouldn't be vague.</i><br /><br />The usual method when someone is wrong is to quote the relevant portions of the documents that prove them wrong. By not doing so you're certainly being vague.<br /><br /><i>Over at my blog, Fake Ibrahim recently dabbled in the provenance of international law as it may or may not be applied to the control of the West bank and Jerusalem</i><br /><br />What is it with Zionists believing that the legal status of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem has never been decided by a court of law?<br /><br />I'm not a lawyer and you're not a lawyer. You want to make a case for Israel. I point out the small detail that the ICJ and the UNSC have already decided that the settlements are illegal. I don't need to say anything further.<br /><br />It's like if I quote Newton's law of gravity. I don't need an apple to hit me on the head to know it is true -- other people, more knowledgeable than me, have ascertained it is. Similarly, I don't need to travel to Hebron to know that Israel can't build in the occupied territories. Thomas Buergenthal's authoritative opinion is more than enough.<br /><br />As for the rest of your comment, I'll quote myself: [My target audience] consists of people smart enough to recognize that if someone makes some weird assertion about me and I don't respond, that doesn't mean I agree or acknowledge or confirm what is being said about me.Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-68682318313444305852010-04-06T15:17:11.379-07:002010-04-06T15:17:11.379-07:00no no, it's nice to concur with somebody and y...no no, it's nice to concur with somebody and you do put it betterlevi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-74713175065551153662010-04-06T15:10:10.212-07:002010-04-06T15:10:10.212-07:00Sorry about that, Mark. I don't usually inter...Sorry about that, Mark. I don't usually intervene in threads I haven't read and now I remember why.Ernie Halfdramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06463362099448607727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-28417058996463472842010-04-06T15:04:57.171-07:002010-04-06T15:04:57.171-07:00Yaakov - I'm not interested in your personal b...Yaakov - I'm not interested in your personal beef with the host here but I followed the link in your name and apparently you wrote "Right to Exist, A Moral Defense of Israel's Wars" and you were "Director of Archives at Yad Vashem". I thought Yad Vashem was supposed to be the "moral defense of Israel's wars".levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-78613804897207316702010-04-06T05:18:06.405-07:002010-04-06T05:18:06.405-07:00Off topic - but then, most things Fake Ibrahim tal...Off topic - but then, most things Fake Ibrahim talks about are.<br /><br />Over at my blog, Fake Ibrahim recently dabbled in the provenance of international law as it may or may not be applied to the control of the West bank and Jerusalem (the two are not the same by international law, but FI doesn't know that). In response, I alluded to the single most important document in the discussion; the legal fundament on which all other documents are based.<br /><br /><br />Fake Ibrahim looked blank and told me I shouldn't be vague.<br /><br />The only reason I mention all this is that it's yet another demonstration of the fact that FA really doesn't know what he's talking about. It's as if we were having a discussion about Catalunia (he teaches Catalan, after all), and he'd never heard of Franco - except that my example was more fundamental.<br /><br />Give it a break, Fake Ibrahim. Find yourself a life.Yaacovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12835192312242961481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-23283145442620995612010-04-05T21:50:25.135-07:002010-04-05T21:50:25.135-07:00Ernie - I made the same point as you several point...Ernie - I made the same point as you several points back but the anonymous one chose to ignore the point and repeat the mantra.<br /><br />Here's what I said, though admittedly, you put it better:<br /><br /><i>The EUMC working "definition" of antisemitism is complete bullshit and it is in itself antisemitic. It claims that it is antisemitic to compare Israel to the nazis. But that is only the case if the State of Israel equates to Jews in general and to suggest that is antisemitic. The same goes for likening Israel to apartheid South Africa and to saying that the estblishment of the State of Israel is/was a "racist endeavour".<br /><br />The working definition states that it is ok to criticise Israel but only if you criticise other countries for the same things but can one of the anonymouses or Silke or somesuch name a state that is established on the grotesque principle that Israel is?<br /><br />Go on, which state mobilises people from all around the world to come and live there whilst denying that right to people that actually come from there?<br /><br />You might also consider answering the question, which country has an equivalent organisation to the World Zionist Organisation to liaise between itself and people around the world who it purports to exist for?</i><br /><br />So anon, instead of repeating mantras (or is it mantrae?) and hiding behind lobby documents, respond directly to some of the points being made.<br /><br />Thankslevi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-83055331282234705182010-04-05T17:35:44.393-07:002010-04-05T17:35:44.393-07:00Anon - Here's a conundrum for you. I once got...Anon - Here's a conundrum for you. I once got a letter in the St. Louis Jewish Light asserting Israel is "gerrymandering an ethnic majority in a land that does not have this majority." Now, this paper probably wouldn't print that if it was an anti-semitic slander and/or had no clue what I was talking about. I employed that phrase specifically to avoid using "apartheid." Do you have a better term for it? Please tell us what Israel is doing by denying millions of refugees and occupied people citizenship and in what way is that different from denying black South Africans the same rights.<br /><br />Maybe instead of blowing methane you can come up with a different model for viewing the systematic behavior of Israel where several international jurists have failed.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-72328222099027757782010-04-05T15:08:29.872-07:002010-04-05T15:08:29.872-07:00Sorry I haven't been following this thread, bu...Sorry I haven't been following this thread, but I can't leave these references to the EUMC 'Working Definition' unrefuted.<br /><br />Kenneth Stern of the American Jewish Committee may be an expert on transforming graffiti and odd comments into the next holocaust, but he doesn't have a clue about how to define a concept. If you actually read the 'Working definition' it's quite clear that it doesn't actually define anything. <br /><br />Furthermore, and more importantly, it is tendentious in asserting that comparisons witn nazism are antisemitic <i>tout court</i>. It is actually silent on the matter of comparisons with apartheid. The way the actual definitions of the crimes of genocide and apartheid as enunciated in the relevant conventions are framed makes it obligatory to accuse Israel of committing those crimes, if anyone thought that would do any good. Apart from which, on the face of it, the EUMC appears to have been setting itself up as endorsing restrictions on freedom of expression.<br /><br />But the most fatal flaw of the WD of course is that judged in its own terms, it is itself an instantiation of antisemitic speech. In insisting that 'Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis' is antisemitic, it clearly implies that to do so impugns all Jews and not just the state of Israel, in other words, 'Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel'. (http://bureauofcounterpropaganda.blogspot.com/2007/04/eu-slams-gandhi.html)<br /><br />If clueless anonymous trolls were really concerned about fighting antisemitism, a good place to start would be getting rid of this antisemitic 'enlightened consensus' and combating the racist 'experts' responsible for it.Ernie Halfdramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06463362099448607727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-75983019621837028172010-04-05T13:40:03.590-07:002010-04-05T13:40:03.590-07:00Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is an antisemitic...Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is an antisemitic smear.<br /><br />Calling Israel an apartheid state is an antisemitic slander.<br /><br />This is what the EU's definition of antisemitism says, and this definition - written by experts after a painstaking process of consultation within member states - has been picked up by many other countries and organizations, such as the OSCE.<br /><br />You can call the definition "wrong" and "worthless" all you want, but it is the international consensus among democratic nations and as such has great authority in this world. <br /><br />So if you make such noxious comparisons you are by definition an antisemite under this enlightened consensus. End of story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-20417008472865322042010-04-05T12:09:41.490-07:002010-04-05T12:09:41.490-07:00The way I see it, there are several problems with ...The way I see it, there are several problems with Nazi analogies or at least in overuse. Anti-semitism is not one of them. This is basically going to say in so many words there are better comparisons.<br /><br />- As <a href="http://www.maxajl.com/?p=3210" rel="nofollow"> Max Ajl</a> explains, it demonizes the Nazis as the only true evil. I'd expand that to include demonizing them as a unique phenomenon existing on its own terms separate from the history of colonialism, Germany's own included. In fact, the concept of <i>avodah ivrit</i> was taken from Bismarck's <i>kulturkampf</i> which forbade German settlers in Poland from hiring Polish labour. It may be more helpful to analyze where Zionism and Nazism came from, not to mention Apartheid, than to make comparisons.<br /><br />- This point is a mirror image of 1) though it's worth mentioning, it also implicitly accepts the Jewish suffering under the Nazis as the only true suffering <br /><br />- Clarity. It's easier to explain the "Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid" and how it relates to Israel and South Africa than the "Prevention of Genocide" vis-a-vis Israel and Germany.<br /><br />- Apartheid is more sound with or without state power. The NSDAP enacted political violence out of power but it had no bureaucratic power over Germans. Zionism accomplished that much even in the Ottoman era since they established a measure of autonomy over the settlements. By the time the NSDAP formed, there was already a pattern of dispossessing the native Palestinians and abusing Middle Eastern Jews. Arabs were evicted from newly acquired property at gunpoint, Yemeni Jews were hired as labourers at "Arab" wages and their European "brethren" didn't lift a finger to include them in striking or even make demands on their behalf. This parallels the development of apartheid more closely than the Third Reich.<br /><br />That's not to say the comparison should be forbidden. When Norman Finkelstein links the self-pity of high ranking Nazis with Israeli soldiers, he probably chose the best scenario for that one, simply because it's so cliche to view them as intractable evil. There's also the Ha'avara agreement and German policy during the 1936 revolt though that wasn't pro-Zionist so much as pro-British. However, that could only happen because Zionism and Nazism share essentially the same values. It's just limiting to make Nazism the basis for comparison.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-31890289102283749452010-04-05T08:11:27.915-07:002010-04-05T08:11:27.915-07:00ach herrje
something went wrong or I did wrong wit...ach herrje<br />something went wrong or I did wrong with my oh so brilliant and well thought through answer to Levi9909 and Ibrahim and now it's gone<br />what a pity <br />- no this comment is not a hoax it is just to let you guys know that you really made me try hard and now it turns out it was all for nothing - I feel really sorry for myself<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-77481852589434541282010-04-05T06:31:18.637-07:002010-04-05T06:31:18.637-07:00Actually, Silke, my target audience includes also ...Actually, Silke, my target audience includes also you. It consists of people smart enough to recognize that if someone makes some weird assertion about me and I don't respond, that doesn't mean I agree or acknowledge or confirm what is being said about me.<br /><br />Re the "Working Definition": there exists an excellent <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.html" rel="nofollow">essay</a> by Michael Neumann, in which he discusses the "definitional inflation" that the concept of anti-semitism has undergone. Excerpt:<br /><br /><i>Inflating the meaning of 'antisemitism' to include anything politically damaging to Israel is a double-edged sword. It may be handy for smiting your enemies, but the problem is that definitional inflation, like any inflation, cheapens the currency. <b>The more things get to count as antisemitic, the less awful antisemitism is going to sound.</b> This happens because, while no one can stop you from inflating definitions, you still don't control the facts. In particular, no definition of 'antisemitism' is going to eradicate the substantially pro-Palestinian version of the facts which I espouse, as do most people in Europe, a great many Israelis, and a growing number of North Americans.</i><br /><br />In the particular case of analogies between Israel and the Nazis, I think they're completely wrong, unless you copycat the Zionists' techniques and claim: "in the New Nazism, you don't exterminate peoples anymore; you keep them under siege, allowing them to import shoes or clothing only once every three years...". In other words, only through more definitional inflation can Israel be equated to the Nazis (though I'd like to see those incensed by the analogy to go ballistic over the Americans comparing Hugo Chávez to Hitler).<br /><br />The analogy between Israel and apartheid South Africa, on the other hand, has very solid foundations and has been endorsed by mainstream Israeli politicians like Shulamit Aloni or Yossi Sarid. It is very telling that the Working Definition puts both analogies (with the Nazis and with apartheid) at the same level, as if accusing someone of racial segregation were the same as accusing them of genocide. It is that all-encompassing nature that renders the Definition worthless.Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-66329182881494978032010-04-05T05:46:10.911-07:002010-04-05T05:46:10.911-07:00Levi9909
if you were capable of reading carefully ...Levi9909<br />if you were capable of reading carefully you might have noticed that my "them" referred to what Ibrahim calls his "target audience"<br /> - if you can read racism by ME into that, be my guest - but maybe you should have a good look at saint Ibrahim ...<br /><br />I move on when I get either banned by Ibrahim or too bored with yall's combined predictability or maybe just because it might stop to rain for a change.<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-13747320237095929082010-04-05T05:04:34.964-07:002010-04-05T05:04:34.964-07:00Anon - with every comment you reveal yourself to b...Anon - with every comment you reveal yourself to be either a liar or a racist or both. In this case, a light hearted comment from me, according to you, "you something about <i>them</i>". It is so typical of racists to elevate the words or behaviour of the individual to the level of a complaint against a collective.<br /><br />Anyway, since now your history has been shown to be bogus and your worldview to be racist, you're reduced to twittering about nothing. Time to go, huh? Or is there literally no end to your capacity for inventing pseudo debate? If so you might want to consider what a cultural, intellectual and moral vaccuum your support for Jewish supremacy has made of you.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-84330851379008117282010-04-05T04:27:14.400-07:002010-04-05T04:27:14.400-07:00Ibrahim
have you noticed that Levi9909 was only ag...Ibrahim<br />have you noticed that Levi9909 was only agreeing to respect your wishes AFTER I had pointed out that you were less respected by your "target audience" than Dr. Lozowick is?<br />should tell you something about them shouldn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-17394928607551804612010-04-05T04:25:37.534-07:002010-04-05T04:25:37.534-07:00andrew r
interesting image of polite society you h...andrew r<br />interesting image of polite society you have ...<br /><br />if you want to learn about it I'd recommend to start READING with Mr. Knightley - though he is errs a bit too much on the strict side - still I can't think of a better character to start the quest with<br /><br />to give you a wee hint - polite society is all about tact not about ties<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-87008721098484529782010-04-05T04:24:57.058-07:002010-04-05T04:24:57.058-07:00andrew r
interesting image of polite society you h...andrew r<br />interesting image of polite society you have ...<br /><br />if you want to learn about it I'd recommend to start READING with Mr. Knightley - though he is errs a bit too much on the strict side - still I can't think of a better character to start the quest with<br /><br />to give you a wee hint - polite society is all about tact not about ties<br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-1139617863910929532010-04-05T01:40:56.536-07:002010-04-05T01:40:56.536-07:00Of course you all hate the definition because it s...Of course you all hate the definition because it shows that your faux "activism" is really rank antisemitism in disguise. But you're out of luck. Here's a document committing the OSCE to promote the EU's working definition of antisemitism in all 50 OSCE member states: http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2009/09/39748_en.pdf<br /><br />The OSCE understands that the fight against the new antisemitism is a global struggle.<br /><br />Mark, there is just about nothing more insulting to Jews (i.e. antisemitic) than comparing Israel to the Nazis. It is designed to insult the memory of the millions of innocent Jews murdered 60 years ago, besides being patently absurd (more Jews were killed in a single day in the Holocaust then all the Arabs killed by Israel since 1948!) It is a sure sign of an antisemite today.<br /><br />Gert, as your garbled example of basketball v. intelligence shows, you really know nothing about the research into this subject. Read up on the literature - I'm not going to walk you through it. But your understanding of it is completely wrong: antisemitism is not a form of racism but a completely separate phenomenon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-71750178815416955162010-04-04T17:32:20.260-07:002010-04-04T17:32:20.260-07:00The EUMC working "definition" of antisem...The EUMC working "definition" of antisemitism is complete bullshit and it is in itself antisemitic. It claims that it is antisemitic to compare Israel to the nazis. But that is only the case if the State of Israel equates to Jews in general and to suggest that is antisemitic. The same goes for likening Israel to apartheid South Africa and to saying that the estblishment of the State of Israel is/was a "racist endeavour".<br /><br />The working definition states that it is ok to criticise Israel but only if you criticise other countries for the same things but can one of the anonymouses or Silke or somesuch name a state that is established on the grotesque principle that Israel is?<br /><br />Go on, which state mobilises people from all around the world to come and live there whilst denying that right to people that actually come from there?<br /><br />You might also consider answering the question, which country has an equivalent organisation to the World Zionist Organisation to liaise between itself and people around the world who it purports to exist for?<br /><br />HB - point taken. BTW - I dream about 73 comments to a post!levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-4288637007580183302010-04-04T16:15:17.462-07:002010-04-04T16:15:17.462-07:00Now Silke, you just compared Palestinians to Nazis...Now Silke, you just compared Palestinians to Nazis. Every Palestinian is a Nazi regardless of what they think and do. Sometimes I think you Zionist people are more forgiving of Germans for being Nazis than Palestinians for living on Jewish land.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-71074186243211135472010-04-04T16:12:48.744-07:002010-04-04T16:12:48.744-07:00Polite society = Dressing up, having colleagues an...Polite society = Dressing up, having colleagues and working some type of managerial or at least some white collar position where you can "get ahead." Got any more brain teasers?<br /><br />Yaacov was an active participant in an Israeli war on civilians (1982 invasion of Lebanon). Now he writes defensive screeds when people say things about Israel he doesn't like. I get it better than you think, I just don't want to join the cause.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-33537423651471587382010-04-04T16:07:20.850-07:002010-04-04T16:07:20.850-07:00oh andrew r
I must apologize again - you actually ...oh andrew r<br />I must apologize again - you actually got it!<br /><br />"(like what, bombing people's homes from the air?)"<br /><br />YES YES and YES<br />- the allied pilots who were ordered to bomb German cities to smithereens shouldered a very ultimate burden for the sake of their country but also for me their "victim"<br />- they gave me a country to live in that was free of Hitler and his adorers at least to the point that they couldn't hinder me in living the life I wanted to live.<br />and as I guess that you buy that crap about war crimes and militarily useless I hereby forgive you beforehand for your answer<br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-21307690461140486352010-04-04T15:27:12.285-07:002010-04-04T15:27:12.285-07:00no andrew r
I didn't say you were impolite I ...no andrew r <br />I didn't say you were impolite I said you were not fit for polite society <br />BTW I have no doubt that figuring out the difference between the two is more than you can or are willing to manage<br /><br />but I have been very glad to learn that you have at least been browsing through Dr. Lozowick's blog and that you obviously didn't get "it" so I gather to advice you to try a bit of Sapere Aude is futile but I needn't worry any longer that your views are due to lack of contact with something better than what you find here. Because you see besides being a vicious Teuton I have also a very distinct mothering drive<br /><br />SilkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-91074565801378180592010-04-04T14:47:46.203-07:002010-04-04T14:47:46.203-07:00I meant Dr. Lozowick himself is repulsive. Here a...I meant Dr. Lozowick himself is repulsive. Here are three of my favorite examples.<br /><br /><a href="http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2009/03/look-what-everyone-missed.html" rel="nofollow">"they aren't civilians"</a><br /><br /><a href="http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2009/01/antisemitism-is-anti-rationalism.html" rel="nofollow">excommunication</a><br /><br /><a href="http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/search/label/IDF-Achikam" rel="nofollow">"ultimate burden a nation can ask of its men" (like what, bombing people's homes from the air?)</a><br /><br />He's a cultured thug.<br /><br />If telling me I'm impolite is supposed to be a taunt... whatever you say, ma'am.andrew rnoreply@blogger.com