tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post4757696924002465183..comments2024-03-22T22:27:18.642-07:00Comments on The Hasbara Buster: The problem is with the hasbara, not with the audienceIbrahim Ibn Yusufhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-14334066283744175282010-05-05T05:16:21.770-07:002010-05-05T05:16:21.770-07:00The apartheid analogy is not fair for a number of ...The apartheid analogy is not fair for a number of reasons, one of which is that South Africa under the apartheid regime did not let black people (80-90 percent of the population) even vote, much less be a part of the system. It is true that there is a lot of discrimination and structural barriers, but the apartheid analogy throws more heat than light on the Palestinian-Israeli situation.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14536579820036423783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-91605788785616473282010-03-20T18:47:05.042-07:002010-03-20T18:47:05.042-07:00And yet, it does seem to be a haven for everyone f...<i>And yet, it does seem to be a haven for everyone from victims of genocide in Darfur to gay Palestinians, Ethiopian, Yemeni, Iraq, Russian and so many many other Jews, from around the world.</i><br /><br />Crap. Pure, utter and absolute crap.<br /><br />Darfur: <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/894800.html" rel="nofollow">Government: Darfur refugees will be refused entry into Israel</a>.<br /><br />Gays: "Ezra, an Israeli Jew, and Selim, a Palestinian Muslim, live, sleep -- and hide together. <b>The gay couple faces arrest at any moment</b>: Selim for being illegally on Israeli soil, Ezra for helping, hiring and sheltering him." (<a href="http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2002/02/21/ezra_selim/" rel="nofollow">Source</a>)<br /><br />It's only too bad that Israel invented the microchip, the computer and finally the Internet. Because of them, Zionists can't peddle self-flattering lies with impunity anymore. The Israelis will have to stop being so creative.Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-42294102148080498152010-03-20T18:29:06.425-07:002010-03-20T18:29:06.425-07:00Israel has the power to make perpetual war and rui...<i>Israel has the power to make perpetual war and ruin millions of lives. It can't actually save anyone.</i><br /><br />Right. And yet, it does seem to be a haven for everyone from victims of genocide in Darfur to gay Palestinians, Ethiopian, Yemeni, Iraq, Russian and so many many other Jews, from around the world.<br /><br />Israel doesn't exist to save Jews. It empowers Jews in need of salvation to save themselves.<br /><br />P.S. I am not the same anonymous as above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-23882072067932302072010-03-20T15:13:05.392-07:002010-03-20T15:13:05.392-07:00They haven't fought 7 wars in as many decades ...<i>They haven't fought 7 wars in as many decades and amassed hundreds of nukes to roll over because some gentiles shout "racist" at them.</i><br /><br />That's rich. Not only because Israel would not be the first nuclear state to peacefully give up what it acquired through war, also because you seem to think Israel and the whole Zionist movement has been independent of any gentile whims.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-79220750542267238002010-03-20T14:54:19.783-07:002010-03-20T14:54:19.783-07:00I thought you said it wasn't about 'securi...I thought you said it wasn't about 'security', Anonymous?Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-1521792187138458702010-03-20T14:25:35.640-07:002010-03-20T14:25:35.640-07:00"Is anyone preventing Jews from living anywhe..."Is anyone preventing Jews from living anywhere, or denying them the right to practice their professions?"<br /><br />That's pretty rich! After 2000 years of lethal antisemitism and oppression by non-Jews, being denied entry into most professions and expulsions from just about every city in Christendom -- all of which culminated in the physical destruction of half the world's Jewish population -- NOW you want to pretend that everything is hunky dory and that the Jews should trust the post-Holocaust, post-Israel status quo?! And this new status quo is a reason for eliminating the world's only Jewish State? Not going to happen. I know, I know I must be another paranoid jewish victimologist...but it still aint gonna happen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-5068919622984014182010-03-20T13:31:18.962-07:002010-03-20T13:31:18.962-07:00My name is irrelevant, and I wish to keep my anony...<i>My name is irrelevant, and I wish to keep my anonymity. What is wrong with that?</i><br /><br />We don't want you to tell us your name. We're kindly asking you to adopt a <i>nick</i>name so that we can use it to address you and so that your writings aren't confused with those of other unnamed commenters.<br /><br /><i>There is nothing remotely "racist" about Zionism -- quite the opposite: it is a national liberation and emancipation movement of the Jewish People</i><br /><br />How is a Jew in, say, Argentina, in need of liberation and emancipation? Is anyone preventing Jews from living anywhere, or denying them the right to practice their professions? If most Argentinian Jews have chosen NOT to emigrate to Israel, should they retain that right forever? If they're persecuted, how is it they didn't make aliyah?<br /><br /><i>What is racist is to deny the Jews the right to self-determination like any other people!</i><br /><br />What other people? The Kurds? The Basques? The Catalans? The Igbo? Where's the self-determination for the Afrikaners, who were forced by the malevolent international community to share their country with the blacks?<br /><br />You don't know what self-determination means. <i>Self-determination doesn't mean every people has the right to a State</i>. Argentinian Jews enjoy self-determination in Argentina and Israeli Jews will enjoy self-determination in a binational state from the Jordan to the Mediterranean. <br /><br />When you live with other people, self-determination holds for all, not just for you.Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-45958836406122013912010-03-20T13:24:54.974-07:002010-03-20T13:24:54.974-07:00As regards the 'right' to self-determinati...As regards the 'right' to self-determination, I've never believed it is an 'innate' or automatic right.<br /><br />There are many cases where I oppose the right to self-determination: Scots, Kurds and Tamils are but three. Past examples of self-determination not being really all that brilliant are Pakistan and Bangladesh. Israel is a good example too.<br /><br />Cases where self-determination is unlikely to be achieved include Tibet: no Western country will sacrifice its own national interest by clashing with China over Tibetan self-determination.Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-17330625182907237822010-03-20T13:18:57.904-07:002010-03-20T13:18:57.904-07:00Anonymous:
The only reason why we'd like you ...Anonymous:<br /><br />The only reason why we'd like you to simply get a self-chosen nickname (without surrendering your actual anonymity) is to distinguish yourself from other Anons. We have one here that blames Goy commenters of this blog for the Shoah. How do we know that 'Anonymous' isn't you, if you sign also with 'Anonymous'?<br /><br />That wasn't too hard, now was it?Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-82638996385388059022010-03-20T13:06:38.234-07:002010-03-20T13:06:38.234-07:00A while back it was mentioned that this software c...A while back it was mentioned that this software could ban anonymous comments. If Ibrahim won't do it I'm willing to put up with the half-dozen or so anons who post here. I really wonder if they're all the same person, though.<br /><br /><i>just as the Dutch have the Netherlands, the French have France and the Arabs have dozens of countries of their own.</i><br /><br />Let's deconstruct that a bit. If you're a citizen of the Netherlands, you're Dutch. If you're a citizen of France, you're French. If you're a citizen of Israel, you're... Israeli? Well, no, the Israeli Supreme Court declared an Israeli nationality separate from Jewish nationality does not exist.<br /><br />The United States must be racist to Jews because it's denying us self-determination. Yet there is no separatist movement here. Come on people, we've got as many Jews here as Israel. If we need self-determination that badly, why are we still here and not fighting for a Jewish state in continental North America?<br /><br />Methinks American Jews actually like the idea of equal treatment under a liberal, democratic regime. It's only in Palestine that well to do Americans, Jewish or otherwise, cheerlead a violent, mass displacement to make a certain group the majority. Okay, okay, we don't really cheerlead anything. Making excuses and half-hearted apologies is more like it.<br /><br />The irony behind complaining about the two dozen or so Arab states is that they exist for the same reason Israel does -- the Great Powers invaded the former Ottoman Empire and divided it into separate polities, each to be ruled by local and imported collaborators as they saw fit. So you'd rather have one or two strong entities in the region opposing Zionism? Hey, that's a great idea.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-15563437549037032582010-03-20T12:08:31.701-07:002010-03-20T12:08:31.701-07:00My name is irrelevant, and I wish to keep my anony...My name is irrelevant, and I wish to keep my anonymity. What is wrong with that?<br /><br />There is nothing remotely "racist" about Zionism -- quite the opposite: it is a national liberation and emancipation movement of the Jewish People, the realization of our age-old dream of returning to our land to establish a Jewish State there, just as the Dutch have the Netherlands, the French have France and the Arabs have dozens of countries of their own. Yet even the tiny sliver of land called Israel is too much for people like you. <br /><br />What is racist is to deny the Jews the right to self-determination like any other people!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-63695988507213093072010-03-20T07:36:33.271-07:002010-03-20T07:36:33.271-07:00Anonymous:
Unless you start using a handle that d...Anonymous:<br /><br />Unless you start using a handle that distinguishes you from other anons I won't be addressing you again after this.<br /><br /><i>"The massive and overwhelming support for Zionism among Jews around the world (really, I think it might be closer to 99.99%) has little to do with security [...]"</i><br /><br />I'd really like to see some evidence for that contention...<br /><br /><i>"The fact that Palestinian refugees are forced to live in camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with the faux "brotherhood" among Arabs. "</i><br /><br />Like the true adherent to a racist ideology, you blame the victims for their own misfortune. You look at the Palestinians as some kind of an abstraction that can simply be moved across the board like a pawn.<br /><br /><i>"So these reasons lead you to the conclusion that the improbable and amazing experiment which is Zionism -- the reconstitution of a Jewish State after 2000 years of Diaspora around the world -- should come to an end."</i><br /><br />A deliberately self-serving and self-victimising interpretation of anti-Zionism, of course...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-82337410223354567842010-03-19T23:30:18.387-07:002010-03-19T23:30:18.387-07:00Gert:
"As to my own reasons for considering...Gert: <br /><br />"As to my own reasons for considering it a disaster.."<br /><br />So these reasons lead you to the conclusion that the improbable and amazing experiment which is Zionism -- the reconstitution of a Jewish State after 2000 years of Diaspora around the world -- should come to an end. I think none of them merits such an extreme, an ultimately destructive (to the Jews) "solution". <br /><br />p.s. The fact that Palestinian refugees are forced to live in camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with the faux "brotherhood" among Arabs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-33747159953406593002010-03-19T23:15:59.963-07:002010-03-19T23:15:59.963-07:00The massive and overwhelming support for Zionism a...The massive and overwhelming support for Zionism among Jews around the world (really, I think it might be closer to 99.99%) has little to do with security and everything to do with the promise we made each other at every Passover Seder from Cochin to Vancouver for the last 2,000 years: "Next year in Jerusalem!"<br /><br />When you understand this then you will understand what it means to be a Jew and what Israel means in the heart of all Jews.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-88085804630559196572010-03-19T08:13:36.124-07:002010-03-19T08:13:36.124-07:00Yet the Basque Joaquín Almunia retained his job as...<i>Yet the Basque Joaquín Almunia retained his job as Public Administrations Minister, and less than a year after the attack three other Basques were appointed to Cabinet posts</i><br /><br />How similar are their political views to those of the banned Batasuna party?Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-79435549564679251472010-03-19T08:11:39.658-07:002010-03-19T08:11:39.658-07:00Anonymous:
"99% of Jews would agree that Isr...<b>Anonymous:</b><br /><br /><i>"99% of Jews would agree that Israel's creation is one of the high-points not just of the 20th century but of all history -- yet you call it a "disaster". Why am I not surprised? "</i><br /><br />You seem pretty cavalier with your numerical statements. Apart from the fact that Zionism has a long history of Jewish resistance to it, you must be completely unaware of the emerging Jewish anti-Zionist movements both in the US and Europe (I suggest you consult respectively Mondoweiss and Jews Sans Frontieres for further information).<br /><br />You're 'not surprised'... Please indulge one of 'Ibrahim's boys' as to why this is so... <b>Don't whisper, speak up.</b><br /><br />As to my own reasons for considering it a disaster, these are multiple. Large numbers of Palestinian refugees rotting in various refugee camps in Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria are a good starting point. Israel's slow (well, not <i>that</i> slow) but ongoing colonisation of Palestinian land another. Israel's slow but decisive efforts at transferring Palestinians from E.J'sem yet another. The sheer hopelessness of the conflict, largely due to Israel's continued breaking of I'national law and its refusal to abide by over 70 UN resolutions, another. Its 'full spectrum dominance' type of 'self-defense' (aka 'Mad Dog mode'), see Leb II and Gaza I. It's hypocritical stance on nuclear weapons in the ME yet another.<br /><br />Quite a few Jews around the world may believe in the illusion that Israel increases their safety but they'll have to accept that this was obtained at the expense of the safety and well-being of another people, not to mention some of Israel's neighbours...Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07752117708821629614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-15043905405369693502010-03-19T06:15:32.663-07:002010-03-19T06:15:32.663-07:00Name the structural impediments to greater Arab pa...<i>Name the structural impediments to greater Arab participation in Israel's political process.</i><br /><br />Did I say there's a structural impediment to greater Arab participation?<br /><br />Also, what do you mean by "structural"?Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-80271838731405780282010-03-19T06:12:32.062-07:002010-03-19T06:12:32.062-07:00Which ones have something which is analogous to th...<i>Which ones have something which is analogous to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?</i><br /><br />I would say the Basques have killed far more civilians than the Israeli Arabs have. When I was living in Barcelona a supermarket was blown up by ETA killing 21 people. Yet the Basque Joaquín Almunia retained his job as Public Administrations Minister, and less than a year after the attack three other Basques were appointed to Cabinet posts: Enrique Múgica as Justice Minister, José Luis Corcuera as Minister of the Interior, and José Claudio Aranzadi as Minister of Industry and Energy. And the Basques are a tiny minority of 2 million in a country of 47 million people.<br /><br />Why aren't Israeli Arabs appointed to ministerial positions in similar numbers?<br /><br />Or are you suggesting that the generally peaceful Israeli Arabs have to pay for the crimes of non-Israeli Palestinians?Ibrahim Ibn Yusufhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09839484683464457225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-51369742643241793332010-03-19T04:24:39.183-07:002010-03-19T04:24:39.183-07:00Gert:
"Personally I would argue that the cre...Gert:<br /><br />"Personally I would argue that the creation of Israel was one of the worst ME/FP disasters of the 20th Century."<br /><br />99% of Jews would agree that Israel's creation is one of the high-points not just of the 20th century but of all history -- yet you call it a "disaster". Why am I not surprised?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-85901725781398733862010-03-19T01:25:24.380-07:002010-03-19T01:25:24.380-07:00I'm not doing anything for Ibrahim. I suffer ...I'm not doing anything for Ibrahim. I suffer your acting thick through purple prose in my own right.andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-82311055847014889762010-03-19T01:21:01.114-07:002010-03-19T01:21:01.114-07:00You just had to ask Part Deux.
Wounded Knee, Semi...You just had to ask Part Deux.<br /><br />Wounded Knee, Seminole Wars, invasions of Canada and Mexico, Trail of Tears, reservations, Black Hills, forced assimilation of children although this was done primarily to Mizrachi Jews instead of Palestinians...andrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-78325532958255862582010-03-18T20:44:37.123-07:002010-03-18T20:44:37.123-07:00Gert, Andrew, as much as Ibrahim appreciates you r...Gert, Andrew, as much as Ibrahim appreciates you running interference on his behalf, he also understands that his credibility is at stake. You may be his "boys" on here, but you are clearly not his equals.<br /><br />Ibrahim has made a significant effort to not be a reflexive anti-Semite, or even an anti-Israel bigot. He builds his arguments carefully. In this case, he has made an assertion on flawed information and analysis. Now that I've forced him to confront the flaw, he can't run from it. This is where the rubber meets the road and we find out just what kind of an intellectual he is, or if all that careful reasoning is a facade for something much less pleasant.<br /><br />And yes, experience has shown that I should save a copy of this webpage, which I have, and prepare a high profile blog where it can be preserved forever, and I have.<br /><br />Let's get this over with, Ibrahim.<br /><br />Name the structural impediments to greater Arab participation in Israel's political process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-15995742759532722442010-03-18T20:09:17.634-07:002010-03-18T20:09:17.634-07:00Yitzchak - You just had to ask
United States . . ...<i>Yitzchak - You just had to ask<br /><br />United States . . . </i><br /><br />That's interesting. What in the US is analogous to the I/P conflict?Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-36252441095526400902010-03-18T18:35:42.390-07:002010-03-18T18:35:42.390-07:00Yitzchak - You just had to ask
United States
Cana...Yitzchak - You just had to ask<br /><br />United States<br />Canada<br />New Zealand<br />Australiaandrew rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2781379104401133933.post-29772306277763839282010-03-18T18:02:52.608-07:002010-03-18T18:02:52.608-07:00In all advanced democratic countries, the fact tha...<i>In all advanced democratic countries, the fact that a minority is disaffected doesn't prevent its members from holding top positions in government. That's not the case in Israel.</i><br /><br />Which ones have something which is analogous to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?Yitzchak Goodmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13478596798458473250noreply@blogger.com